Topics Covered In This Episode:
- What is CBD? How is it derived from cannabis plants?
- What athletes need to be aware of regarding the current stance from USADA and WADA
- What are the science-backed benefits, if any, of using CBD?
- What are the potential adverse effects?
- What does regulation in the CBD industry look like?
- Are there best use practices endurance athletes should consider?
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD, is an Olympian, World Champion in triathlon, and epidemiologist with a strong background in study design and biostatistics, particularly questionnaire-based outcomes studies. Joanna’s studies took her to Brown University (BA) and Northwestern University (MS). She did her doctoral and post-doctoral work at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health with a focus on gene-environment interactions in the etiology of birth defects. A 2009 bike accident left Dr. Joanna Zeiger with severe chronic pain for which she started using cannabis to mitigate symptoms and to aid with sleep. Learning more about cannabis and its medicinal possibilities, particularly in the climate of the opioid crisis, has driven Dr. Joanna Zeiger’s interest to study the plant; her emphasis is on patient outcomes and finding ways to improve the lives of those who suffer with pain. Learn more about Joanna Zeiger here.
Stacy Cason is the Founder and CEO of Planetarie — a proprietary water-extracted CBDa company— that is revolutionizing the way hemp is processed to extract cannabinoids by using a more natural and unique way that doesn’t call for the use of harsh chemicals, heat or pressure. After working 15 years as a medical provider and seeing first-hand the chronic pain epidemic in this country, as well as the opioid addiction problem, Stacy started Planetaire. Her goal was to bring a healthier, more natural & sustainable method for extracting cannabinoids and to bring natural plant healing to the mainstream, as a healthier alternative to ibuprofen / NSAIDs. Learn more about Stacy Cason here.
- Canna Research Group: http://cannaresearchgroup.net/
- Planetarie (Use code CTS for 10% off): https://planetarie.com
- USADA FAQ: https://www.usada.org/athletes/substances/marijuana-faq/
Disclaimer: Planetarie is the official CBD partner of CTS.
Please note that this is an automated transcription and may contain errors. Please refer to the episode audio for clarification.
Adam Pulford (00:00:07):
So just a, a quick disclosure before we get into today’s episode, uh, planetary is a CBD company based in Colorado. And the owner of planetary has come to some CTS camps. She super passionate about fitness, wellness, and endurance athletics. Uh, she’s a triathlete as well as a cyclist and passionate about CBD. The other guest on today’s episode is, uh, a researcher in the field of CBD and all things, hemp, marijuana based, these things. I know nothing, absolutely nothing about. And so as I get the question and kind of requests of, Hey, um, should endurance athletes be taking CBD for various reasons? I, I reached out to the people I knew and, uh, started asking some questions and I, I learned a ton along the way. Um, I still carried quite a bit of ignorance and into arrogance coming into this episode. Um, so as you listeners, uh, listen to me go, uh, we’ll, we’re kind of like learning together here.
Adam Pulford (00:01:15):
So, uh, but just know that about planetary as, as a company. Um, I think what you’ll find is the, the experience and the knowledge from these two guests are quite deep in this area and the, the stigma around C B, D THC, and kind of the, the history around it too. I mean, this is something that I didn’t really know about, but, uh, I think it’s a worthwhile discussion, especially for something, um, you know, a new product that at is, uh, kind of everywhere in our industry now. So, uh, for what it’s worth, um, you know, I, I learned a ton, uh, I’ll let you all decide kind of where you stand on, uh, C D and then life of an endurance athlete, but, uh, some pretty good, some pretty good stuff in this episode. I hope you enjoy it. Welcome back, or welcome to the train right podcast. As I alluded to in my pre episode intro, we’ve got a pretty interesting and hot topic to discuss today, the world of cannabis and the endurance athlete, since I know extremely little or next to nothing about this topic, I want to introduce two experts in this field who will be our learning guides in today’s conversation, Joanna Zeiger and Stacy Cason. Welcome to the show.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:02:31):
Stacy Cason, MS (00:02:32):
Thank you, Adam.
Adam Pulford (00:02:34):
Yeah, so, you know, thank you both for taking time to talk to, um, you know, myself and also the listeners to learn more about this topic, um, to Joanna, let’s just start with you, uh, I, I know a little bit from your triathlon world and, and some listeners may know you from that as well, but could you tell us more about kind of the professional world, the researcher world, as well as the athlete world that, uh, that you, uh, live in?
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:03:01):
Sure. I was a I’ll start with, uh, my athletic backgrounds. Uh, so I was a professional triathlete from 1998 until 2010. During that time I went to the 2000 Sydney Olympics where I placed fourth, and that same year I went to the Hawaii Ironman world championships and placed fifth F and I am still the only athlete to compete in both events in the same calendar year. Uh, I won, uh, bronze at the 2001 I world championships. So that’s short course and 2008, I was the Ironman 70.3 world champion in what was then world record time in 2009, when I offending my world championship title, I had a terrible bike accident at one of the aid stations. I was getting a water bottle and a person didn’t let go of the water bottle and basically pulled me off my bike. I flipped over the handle bars and broke my collarbone and did severe structural and neuropathic damage to my ribcage.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:03:57):
Uh, so I have condition called intercostal neuro, and that’s basically, I’ve got, uh, damage to those nerves that run between the ribs. So breathing is very painful. It impacts my diaphragm. It impacts a lot of organs. Uh, and so that effectively, I did try to race for one more year, but it effectively, um, ended my career because I just couldn’t race through the pain anymore. Uh, professionally I have a PhD in genetic epidemiology from the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg school of public health. I moved to Colorado in 2003 and when I moved here, I started working at CU Boulder at the Institute for behavioral genetics. I spent eight years studying drug use and abuse in adolescents and young adult. So one of the drugs I studied with marijuana. So that was my first, my first life of doing marijuana research. And I had a bit of a hiatus where I was just doing some statistical consulting and my condition got much worse.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:04:56):
And I became very desperate because the pain and the insomnia and the spasms of, and the lack of appetite were becoming just untenable. My husband was encouraging me to use cannabis, and it was legal here, recre, uh, medically at the time. But the stigma was just too great as an athlete. Um, during my time as an athlete, it was not legal in any form. That’s changed. THC is legal now up to a certain level. And then my work that was doing at the Institute for behavioral genetics was also looking at the very negative aspects of cannabis. And so I just really had this negative feeling toward it, but when it became legal recreationally, it just lifted one of those stigmas. And so I decided to try it. And so I marched into dispensary and I said, this is what I need it for. Can you help me?
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:05:41):
And they gave me some patches and some creams and some gummies, and I didn’t wanna inhale it. I’ve got asthma. So I was like, all right, I’m gonna try the patch. And I put the whole patch on my leg and I was so high. I couldn’t move. Um, they did not tell me that you need to cut the patch. I’m not a very big person. That was a lot of cannabis for one small person, but I slept. And so as a researcher, I, I understand that sometimes you, you know, don’t always get things right, your first go around, but I looked at the positive, a positive aspects of it. I slept. And so I started refining the process stay. I’m still always looking at new products and new ways to use them, but, uh, it’s still part of my daily health and wellness regimen. When I went to the literature to look and see, well, what are other people’s ex you know, what have, what has research shown?
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:06:30):
There was such a dearth of research on the medical benefits of cannabis. It was really just focused on the negative aspects of it, how it affects the brain, how it affects driving, how it can cause psychosis. Um, it looked at cannabis use disorder, but really there wasn’t a lot, you know, maybe a little bit on seizure disorders and cancer patients, but not just for regular, you know, medical use for the things I was using it for. And so as an epidemiologist, I was like, well, I can do this. I can, I can do these studies. So I started, uh, a found a group called can research group. And we did our first study in 2018, looking at cannabis and athletes. And then two years ago, uh, we got nonprofit status and we continued to do studies in other populations and physician groups in the AF of trying to learn more about patterns of use adverse effects and benefits, knowledge, and attitudes with the goal of being able to educate both patients and physicians, and really dialing down into what cannabinoids should people be using, what ratios, what dosages should they be starting at, uh, for, you know, is it different for D ailments?
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:07:39):
And so these are the kinds of things that we’re trying to learn as time goes on.
Adam Pulford (00:07:44):
Yeah, well, this is, this is gonna be fascinating, cuz all of those questions are, are what need to be explored. Um, and uh, and you seem like you got the, all the answers, so that’s gonna be great.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:07:55):
I wish I had all the answers, but uh, it’s of an ongoing process.
Adam Pulford (00:08:00):
Exactly. Exactly. So Stacy, um, and thank you Joanna for the background. That’s, that’s awesome to get to know you a little bit better. Uh, Stacy, it’s good to see you again. I’ve seen you at some CTS camps back in Colorado, so it’s good to cross paths with you again, uh, for our audience that doesn’t know you, could you give a little bit more background on who you are and what you do?
Stacy Cason, MS (00:08:23):
Sure. Um, I started my career in healthcare, so I was 15 years as, um, the healthcare provider, mostly in anesthesiology. Um, so anesthesia deals with, with pain and, and so I saw a lot of chronic pain. Um, and I, and I did a variety of, of different types of anesthesia over the years and grew a little weary with doing direct patient care. And so went back to business school to say, I don’t know what I wanna be when I grow up, but it’s not in the hospital. So, um, that found me to, um, commercial real estate development. And then a few years later through a real estate project was introduced to the hip space. So early 2018 and I was in, um, impressed more with the medicinal properties of cannabinoids and as an alternative to like dangerous opioids and damaging insets like ibuprofen. So I came at it from like a pain management perspective, um, and as a healthier way to treat people.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:09:28):
And I think being an, you know, an athlete you you’re really concerned with what goes into your body and you care more about how your body performs and, and what kind of stuff you’re putting into it. So to give plant-based alternatives that are, that are healthier for us was really kind of what inspired me and has been the passion to, to move this forward. Um, I I’ve always been an athlete, but nowhere near at your level. So it’s really hard to follow Joanna anyway and in the introduction. Um, but yeah, I’ve done, I’ve done a few iron mans and um, and a lot of big cycling events. And so I got to know you and, and CTS, so really impressed with that. And I think, um, we found quite a few customers through the athlete world. I think people are finding, you know, product, um, cannabis products that really work well for them. So, um, four years ago I started this company planetary and we set out to do, um, extraction from hemp in a healthier way and leave a more natural raw product. So we, um, we have C B D a products. So it’s not exactly C B, but it’s the precursor too. And the way it’s made in the plant. And, uh, we have products in the market for a few years now and I’m definitely growing. So that’s, that’s been my passion for the last four years.
Adam Pulford (00:10:54):
Very cool. Very cool. Well, you know, to our listeners, we’ve, I think you can see that we’ve got two great minds in, in a couple different spaces to kind of ask the right questions and drill down into, you know, what CBD is, how to use it, if you should use it. Um, if you’re an endurance athlete, so I’m gonna start real basic again, a just kind of assuming that, you know, our listeners could be regular users or they could be like myself that read some stuff five years ago and was like, Ooh, sounds problematic. And I don’t wanna put that into my body. So, um, we’ll start very basic and then we’ll get into it. I might come across as a little critical at times and, uh, and I might come across as ignorant at times. Um, but, uh, that, that’s where a great conversation I think can start is just by asking really good questions and being open to learning. So are you too ready to go? Yeah. Yep. Alrighty. So let’s first start. As I said, super simply, uh, what is C B D and how do we get it? Like where does it come from and uh, how do you get it from the plant itself?
Adam Pulford (00:12:07):
And Joanna, I would say probably start with you, but I mean, if Stacy, if you’re the better one, go for it.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:12:13):
So I think that anytime you have a conversation about CBD, I think it’s Remis not to talk about the whole plant. And the fact that CBD is just one of many cannabinoids. So CBD is what’s called a cannabinoid and there are hundreds of cannabinoids and the two most popular, famous, infamous, however you wanna call it are CBD and THC. So THC is psychogenic and C B D for the most part is not. I think if you take enough of it, eventually it becomes psychogenic. But at the doses that most people are taking, you will not feel any psychoactive effects from it. Um, so C B D is all the rage because it seems to have less of a stigma than th it’s also federally legal. Um, since 2018, when they passed the farm bill hemp, uh, became legal hemp is, uh, also part of the cannabis plant.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:13:04):
It is less than 0.3% THC. So it has some THC in it, but by new amounts of it. And so that’s what designates it as hemp. And then the other, other strain of, or other part is marijuana, which we all know about has the higher levels of THC. And over the years, those levels keep going up. So, you know, back when I was growing up THC, you know, when you were smoking pot, uh, it didn’t have very much THC in it, maybe 8% and now you can get it up to, you know, 24, 20 5%. So it’s been come much stronger over the years. Um, so C B D seems to be all the rage with athletes for two reasons. Number one, um, it feels to be a safer and, uh, entree into the world of cannabis. Uh, number two, it’s legal, uh, with the world anti-doping agency so that they don’t even test for it. So you don’t have to worry about a positive drug test. Um, and C B D has also, um, without a lot of substantiation, uh, received all of these accolades for just everything from, you know, improving your sleep from improving pain. Uh, it can grow your hair, your toenails. I don’t know any thing you will cancer,
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:14:18):
Anything you want CBD. Uh, COVID uh, they’ve talked about that, you know, so CBD is responsible for curing everything. Um, that is not the case. Uh, there are a lot of erroneous and false claims that have not been substantiated yet by research, but because it seems innocuous people gravitate toward it. But I think any conversation about T CBD needs to also include THC.
Adam Pulford (00:14:44):
Yeah. That’s, that’s a great way to shape it up. Um, and Stacy kind of along with kind of the history of CBD D when, when did we start to know some of the potential health benefits or the medicinal benefits of just the, the oil itself, if you were to separate, you know, the, the THC from the CBD oil, when did this start to become a thing?
Stacy Cason, MS (00:15:06):
I think the first documented cases of cannabis use were, um, over three years ago in China, and it was documented in around the 10th, uh, 10th century in Europe. Um, the Egyptians around the year 1100 were soaking cannabis plants in ethanol and extracting an oil from it. So that has been around for a really long time. It went away in the, um, what’s, I guess, late twenties, early thirties, um, alcohol came back cannabis didn’t and part of that kind of an interesting fun fact is just a great example of propaganda and demonization, and it was more against the fiber. So there was an individual whose business was more dependent upon timber. And so he didn’t want the competing hemp, which has actually grow faster and has better benefits. Um, and so the, the propaganda came out against, against hemp slash cannabis. And the marijuana name is, is debated now because it has some stigma and it was kind of intended as a race, this comment against the Mexicans that were coming over with marijuana at the time.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:16:17):
And, and so they were really painting this out to be the devil’s lettuce and this like really terrible things about the plant fast forward. A lot of years later, I mean, I think it was 2009 when Dr. Sanja Gupta had his, um, is special on, on Charlotte Figgy and, and kind of where things are evolving. And this can be used against children with epilepsy, and there are some potential medicinal benefits. And I think to Joanna’s point, the, the, the de decaffeinated side as I call it, the CBD side tended to be of the, a little more benign. So that’s why I think that became more popular, but to take it from a plant perspective, little show and tell, this is just a little bud of cannabis. So the genetics are called cannabis TIVA. It’s a legal designation that says it’s, the THC levels are less, simply three, it’s called hemp.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:17:13):
And it’s, it’s over that. It’s called marijuana. And that’s the plant is still cannabis sativa. But within this plant, for example, there are over a hundred identified and named individual cannabinoid molecules. So this exact plant may not have that many. And most of the time we test for like eight to 10 in individual cannabinoids, but the most prominent one is C B D a that’s what’s made by the plant through processing with heat and chemicals. It decarb Oates, and becomes C B D. So as that was the most prominent cannabinoid and the most popular way of extracting it, I think that particular molecule became the most popular and the most named, but that is CBD is the name of one individual molecule. And there are such many in the plant. Um, the plan also makes THC, which gets Decar vaccinated into THC. So those are the two most popular ones. There’s also C DGA, and there’s a few others. So now as studies are coming out, some are looking at individual molecules and some are looking at the plant as a whole and, and how they kind of act together. I think at the industry is, is generically called the CBD industry, but that technically just designates one molecule and there’s so much more to the plant.
Adam Pulford (00:18:38):
Gotcha. Yeah, that’s a good history lesson.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:18:41):
I, I should also add that something that many people don’t know is that our bodies have something called the endo cannabinoid system. So we, lot of systems, we have the respiratory system. Uh, we have the, um, I don’t know, name a system, uh,
Stacy Cason, MS (00:18:56):
Cardiovascular system, the cardiovascular,
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:18:59):
There you go. There you go. My brain went funny for a second as it does my, my post COVID brain, but anyway, but we also have a system called the endo cannabinoid system. And so that is in our body. We actually have receptors. Uh, and that’s why when you, uh, consume cannabis that you have, the effects that you do is because we actually naturally have receptors in our bodies to which those bind and the so cannabis is an exogenous cannabinoid, meaning it’s coming from outside the body, but we also make endogenous cannabinoids, meaning that they are made with the, in our bodies, that we produce them ourselves. And we have two of them that bind to these receptors. And, and this system is also, you know, intertwined with some other systems in the body. But the reason why candidates works is because it’s not an accident that we actually are programmed for cannabis.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:19:48):
We have this system already in play in our body, and some people may be deficient in some of the endogenous endocannabinoids, which is why they respond very well. Um, some people may have enough everybody’s system is different. Some may have more receptors CB one, which is what THC binds to, uh, CB two loosely binds to CB one and CB two. And so in some of the re like, uh, CB one receptors are mostly in the brain, uh, and that’s where THC vines. And that’s why you get a lot of these psychoactive effects. Whereas CB two is mostly in the periphery in the gut. And so that’s why a lot of the studies on AER bowel syndrome, or I B D ulcerative colitis, um, they focus on C B D trying to improve gut health. And so when you’re trying to figure out, uh, what ailment you want to treat, uh, you can go online. They have all these charts of where these receptors are, and you can look and see, well, gee, I kind of have pain there, or I’ve got depression or anxiety, or I’ve got this, or that you can look at those receptors and decide maybe CBD would be better for this particular thing, but maybe THC might be better for this or a combination of both. So it’s not an accident that canvas is medicinal because we are set up for it.
Adam Pulford (00:21:04):
Yeah. We’re seems like we’re hard wired to receive these, uh, chemicals, um, to help our bodies out in some form of fashion, uh, the physical self, the cognitive self, something like that. Um, and I mean, is that maybe in part why, like you saw and wa have changed their stance a little bit, it on, on allowing C, B, D, and even a little THC to be, um, acceptable, uh, within an athlete?
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:21:35):
Well, I think part of why they’ve taken CBD off is because it’s now federally legal. So there, there is no restriction on its use, and it’s never proven to be, uh, performance enhancing drug. Uh, THC is still federally illegal. Um, it’s illegal in some states. Um, some states have medical, only some states have both medical and adult use or what recreational use. Um, but it’s still federally illegal. So that puts water in a little bit of a difficult situation of being able, you know, I’m all in favor of wa just taking THC, all cannabis off the list. I mean, I’m gonna put that right out there. I don’t think it should be banned, but I think one of the reasons why it is banned is one is that there’s not enough information about whether or not it’s performance enhancing. I don’t think it is primarily maybe secondarily.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:22:25):
Um, and the other is that it’s not federally legal. And so I think it’s hard for, to make something legal. That’s not federally legal, and it’s also not legal in most of the world. And water is the world anti-doping. So even if it was legalized here in the us, I don’t know if that would change their stance because it’s not legal in other parts of the world, but they, at least it’s not completely illegal. It is a threshold drug. So if you get tested and you do have some THC in your system, as long as it’s below the threshold that they have set forth, um, which I think is 125 nanograms per milliliter, um, you will not have a doping positive, but here’s the question, how much cannabis is that? And here’s the answer. Nobody knows it’s different for everybody. So, you know, five milligrams could set somebody off a hundred milligrams could set somebody off. It’s really unknown. What amounts of THC are going to give you that positive? And I also have a theory that hard exercise releases THC, back into your bloodstream. So even if you haven’t used THC in some time, uh, if you’re at doing a very hard workout or you do a race where the effort’s very high, I, uh, I think some THC can actually get released back out, which could give you a positive, even if you haven’t used it in quite some time.
Adam Pulford (00:23:43):
Okay. So like the current status for athletes, just to throw it out there is C, B D is not band, correct. THC up to a certain level is acceptable, but beyond that, it’s not however,
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:23:57):
In band in competition
Adam Pulford (00:23:58):
Though, band in competition. Okay. Um, so, so even if they’re not in competition, they ’em in, they get tested, they can still have higher THC.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:24:08):
They can have it up to 125 milligrams per milliliter.
Adam Pulford (00:24:12):
Right. So, so not even in, so in non competition,
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:24:16):
Adam Pulford (00:24:16):
Per milli nanograms. Okay. Yeah. Nano. So in noncom competition time, they can have up to that. Correct.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:24:22):
I think even if you get tested in competition, your level is below that it’s okay. But you cannot use it during competition. So it’s not like you could be in the middle of a race and pop a gummy or, you know, smoke a joint.
Adam Pulford (00:24:35):
Yeah, exactly. So my overall point here is like, and, and then you said it too, is like, how much is that? How can you tell is like the current state, as to athletes is come, gonna walk in a little bit of a fine line if you’re in the testing pool of sorts when you’re taking this stuff. So just that’s correct. You gotta be real careful
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:24:53):
You, I mean, really the only way that you could be sure that you’re not gonna test positive is not to use it. Yes. Or to just use a CBD isolate.
Adam Pulford (00:25:01):
Exactly. Now I will say too, probably the majority of our listeners are, don’t have to worry about that. However, for those masters athletes, you know, chasing world championships, the professional athletes out there that are in a testing pool, just so you know, you probably already do, but, uh, that you, you need to know all of that information. Right. And, and that’s the world that Joanna lived in for quite some time, so
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:25:27):
Right. You have to know what you’re putting in your body.
Adam Pulford (00:25:30):
Exactly. Exactly. So with some of that, as, as a risk to the athletes, you know, we’ve already kind of given a nod to some potential benefits. Um, but we haven’t explicitly talked about those Stacy, what, what are some of the benefits, I’d say our legit benefits, not the a hundred point list of curing cancer and all this kind of stuff that I just read this morning on the internet of things. Uh, can you, can you talk a little bit about some of the solid potential benefits to interns athletes?
Stacy Cason, MS (00:26:03):
Yes. So we wrote a white paper that was a meta analysis of all the sign scientific peer review journal articles on C B D a specifically, cuz the way we extract using water keeps it in the raw natural form, the way it’s made in the plant, which is predominantly C B, D a. So specifically looking at at that, um, the biggest one is anti-inflammation and that is by way of the Cox two receptors. So it’s a naturally selective Cox, two inhibitor and CX it’s a, it’s an acronym and you probably wouldn’t have heard of it, but
Adam Pulford (00:26:40):
That, yeah. What does that mean by the way? But just, if you can explain
Stacy Cason, MS (00:26:42):
It, it’s the, it’s the acronym, but it’s the pathway by which ibuprofen can block the inflammation in your knee. Right. So yep. For the psycho oxygenase or the co X receptors, there’s one and two, one blocks prostaglandin, which actually has detrimental effects on your stomach. So that’s where you can have like bleeding stomach ulcers as I did before from taking ibuprofen or also, um, kidney issues. So I had a friend, um, that was an anesthesiologist with me, ran a marathon, was taking ibuprofen afterwards, his kidneys completely shut down and he ended up getting a transplant and it was a, so that’s like the, the negative side, right? The, the bad side effects that happens when you take these nonsteroidal, anti-inflammatories like Oli, ibuprofen, et cetera. Um, the other pathway, the ones that just the way that they work and modulate inflammation is the Cox two.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:27:41):
Um, and that’s, that’s where C P D a a it’s actually more effective per milligram than ibuprofen on those Cox two, but that’s the anti-inflammatory pathway. So that’s something unique. C B D actually does not do that. CBD has some anti-inflammatory properties, but it’s through different, different modalities and different receptor groups related to the endocannabinoid system. So the, I think the inflammation is a big one. Most of our modern diseases are inflammatory in nature. So even a lot of the distress and anxiety they’re showing is, is neuroinflammation. So on a, on a microcellular level there’s inflammation and that leads to litany of symptoms. I mean, there’s a whole lot of inflammatory type. And as an athlete, that’s mostly what you’re getting. That’s the swollen knee, that’s the sore shoulder. That’s, you know, even some of the headaches and stuff. So that’s a big one. Um, another big one is Antina and this is another one where actually CP a is, is more potent than C B, D, but both have actions on the serotonin five H two, one a receptors.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:28:54):
So that’s the receptor that, that when you’re really nervous before a race and you feel OUS that’s thanks to your serotonin receptors. So C B, D, and C B D a can act on those receptors to help prevent or treat anticipatory. Nausea also is great for like chemotherapy and dos nausea and kind of some other forms of it. Um, so those are probably the biggest too. There’s also some neuroprotective benefits, which means if you had it in your system, your brain less likely to be physically traumatized from a head injury, be it a bike wreck, or, you know, a boxing match and you got hit in the head. So there’s, there’s some good benefits on there. Some people talk about better sleep, better anxiety relief. Um, so there’s, and then it starts getting a little squishy. My favorite of the worst claims Joanna was the, the site, someone that I knew sent me this and said, check this out. They have CBD gummies to, to cure diabetes. I was like, well, right off the bat gummies are made with sugar. And that’s not really what, anyway, there are so many false
Adam Pulford (00:30:05):
Claims, some good irony there.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:30:06):
Yeah. With all of the noise, it does tend to attenuate what, what is real and what is, um, scientifically based and, and research proven. So I try to stick with the big ones that we can, we can name those studies or run over where this has been shown to modulate inflammation and reduce nausea.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:30:27):
I, I saw, I saw one where CBD could, um, help soothe your asthma.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:30:32):
Adam Pulford (00:30:34):
Wow. That is interesting. Wildly impressive, soothing asthma,
Adam Pulford (00:30:40):
Those words. Yeah. Yeah. Great, great words. Um, so here, here, maybe Adam Imus, Pulford talking here, but, uh, I’ve tried some CBD, like soft gels and stuff like that over the years and everything that Stacy just described, I will say, I will say I did not experience in terms of, um, you know, the promised benefits and all this kinda stuff. Now I’m, I’m super thankful. I don’t have chronic pain. I don’t have all this kinda stuff. Sure. I’m an athlete, you know, train hard crash, go, boom. You get some inflammation, um, whatnot. And you know, so then elevate the legs, get good sleep and rock and roll. However, I have not experienced any of that Joanna or Stacy, uh, any insights on that with the person who takes it and is like, ah, didn’t work for me. I’m over it.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:31:31):
Well, let me ask you this,
Adam Pulford (00:31:32):
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:31:34):
Number one. Do you know what brand you were using? And number two, how many milligrams of CBD were you taking?
Adam Pulford (00:31:41):
Uh, number two. No idea. Number one. Maybe have either.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:31:45):
You don’t have to say you don’t
Adam Pulford (00:31:46):
Have to say what yeah. I was gonna say, I don’t want to be like super brands. No, you don’t have to say the brand. It
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:31:50):
Is, but, but the brand, but brand matters.
Adam Pulford (00:31:52):
I got it from a bike race, cuz they had it like set up there and I’m like, cool. Yeah, I’ll take this afterwards. All good. But I have, I mean, I have no idea how many milligrams, I can’t really remember the brand, but let’s just, let’s just give you that. But it was capsule. It had, um, you, you like see the fluid in it and it was small. I don’t know.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:32:09):
Yeah. So I think one of the major problems, uh, for people who say, gee, I don’t feel anything with CBD. Well there’s, there are a few number one is some people just don’t respond to CBD. I mean, it’s like any other medicine, you know, there’s lots of medicines on the market for things like depression and, and works for one person, but not for another. And cannabis is no different people respond very differently to it. Some people have horrendous experiences with THC. They, they get psychosis or they get really anxious or they vomit from it. Whereas
Adam Pulford (00:32:41):
The THC or does CBD
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:32:42):
To THC, I’m using THC as an example. Gotcha. Okay. Because, because the, the effects are so profound and you can really feel them, whereas CBD are a little bit more subtle. Um, so you know, THC, uh, you know, for some people it’s wonderful and it’s great and they feel good on it and it helps their ails. Whereas other people say, I never wanna touch this stuff again. CBD is no different C everyone’s gonna have a different reaction to it. Uh, some people are gonna say, wow, that really helped my sore knee. And then there’ll be people like yourself who don’t feel anything. So there are some responders and non-responder, but then there’s also the question of dosage. And what dose are you taking? And what is a dose? And there is, is we were talking about, uh, ibuprofen. And so when you go to your local pharmacy and you buy it over the counter ibuprofen, a dose is a dose it’s, uh, 200 milligrams.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:33:31):
Uh, it doesn’t matter where you buy it. A pill is 200 milligrams. Uh, if you buy it over, the counter C is not like that. C D a dose could be milligrams. It could be 50 milligrams. Um, you could buy capsules that are 25 milligrams. And so a dose is very different for everybody. And so it could be that the dose that you’re taking is too low for you to feel an effect. And many of the clinical trials that are out there are using anywhere from one milligram to five milligrams per kilogram. And so if you’re a 60 or 65 kilogram person, and you’re on that higher end, that’s a lot of C, B D. And if you’re taking five or 10 milligrams of C, B, D, you may not have an effect at all because you are not taking a therapeutic dose and everybody’s therapeutic dose is going to be different.
Adam Pulford (00:34:18):
So I want to get into dosage here are in, in just a bit. I want to come back to that because I think that that’s super important. It’s also some questions that I’ve gotten from athletes when I’m saying, Hey, I’m doing this podcast on CBD. I know nothing. What kind of questions do you wanna learn? So we’ll get there in just a minute. Um, so, but to that point as well. So if I know nothing about, you know, the, the actual dosage, um, that I took, like, what else? So am I like a non-responder or like, what else is going on within my experience, if you will.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:34:51):
Well, it also could be that you purchased a product that doesn’t have any CBD in it, so
Adam Pulford (00:34:57):
No CBD in it. Yeah.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:34:59):
Correct. So CBD is not so anything that you buy at a dispensary at least here in Colorado, and I believe that’s true for any place it’s been tested by state regulated lab. So it has a label on it and it tells you exactly what’s in it. So it has X amount of THC and X amount of CBD and X amount of whatever. And so, you know, your, and it comes with a certificate of analysis as a COA. And so, you know what you’re getting with C B D the testing is not so rigorous, and you can buy that anywhere you can buy on the internet, you can buy it at the grocery store, you can buy it at the pharmacy. Um, it does not come with a certificate of analysis. Um, it can just be anything. And so when third party independent, uh, groups have gone and just bought hundreds of bottles of CBD off the shelf, they have found astonishing results, uh, of products having in it, what is not on the label. So it either it has more CBD or less CBD. It might have THC when it says it has no THC. Um, there could be other unsafe products for human consumption in there. And so they actually will rank these products. Um, and some of them are actually very good. Um, and they put on their websites, their cert certificates of analysis, because they have had their products tested, uh, by a third party. Awesome. Stacy’s so good about that.
Adam Pulford (00:36:20):
Uh, and for, for those of us joining on YouTube, Stacy is having, uh, some visual aids to, to help us in this conversation. Just wanted to throw that out there for anyone not watching, but anyway, sorry, Joanna, keep going.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:36:32):
So the, the type of CBD that you purchased also is going to play a very big role in whether not it works, because if the product does not have CBD in it, you will not have an effect. So I always tell people, make sure you’re buying your product from a reputable company that is very transparent about their product, with their certificates of analysis. They’re not making these unsubstantiated claims. So if you go to a website and they’re promising you the world, that’s probably not a good product.
Adam Pulford (00:37:00):
So Stacy, one of my questions on the outline was how regulated is the CBD industry. We probably just answered that, but like any more, any more insights to that
Stacy Cason, MS (00:37:12):
I would love to. So it’s, it’s really not regulated. There’s some states that have criteria, like the state of Colorado have some criteria on, on testing, but that is recent actually as of last year. So, um, quality matters, right? Would you sign up for an Ironman and then go to Walmart and get a, like a kid’s huffy bike? Probably not like you’re gonna, you’re gonna get a reputable brand or get the right equipment. So if you’re gonna buy a CBD product, I would also get something reputable and, and high quality, because, you know, as she mentioned, they’ve done these exposes and, um, there’s a lab, like a nerd form that we follow. That’s a lot of chemists left to pull products off the shelf and then test. And they’re not only testing for what’s supposed to be in there, but they’re finding things that are not supposed to be in there.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:38:00):
And we can talk about that later when you bring up some of the other isomers, but, um, the show and tell visual is, is a planetary product. This is our infusion. It’s comparable to like a tincture. And then on every label, the box and the label itself, we have the QR code. QR code will take you our website where we’re gonna have a certificate of analysis. So every single batch we ever make, the raw material and the finished product gives us, we call a full suite of testing. So we’re testing for the potency, which is gonna say that ours is labeled for the milligrams of C B D a. And what this label says you can verify is what’s in the, uh, bottle, we’re also testing for pesticides, which are not used in any of our plants. And we’re using U S D a. We are U S D a or organic certified, which is very rare.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:38:54):
And so that’s one of the criteria that there’s no pesticides used in growing it. Um, and there’s also residual solvents, which we don’t use any solvents, so that one’s negative, but most products are extracted with ethanol or Hexa or Penta, or rather, um, flamable solvents. So you wanna of look and make sure those levels are low of what’s in your final product, because those can have negative impacts in the body as well. Um, and then also we’re looking for microbials and mycotoxins, so there have been east and mold and, and some other sort of bad things found in products. So those are things. And now the state of Colorado mandates that those six tests be done on final product. Now, is it enforced? That’s a good question. So there are still plenty of companies that aren’t necessarily showing that, or aren’t really showing what’s in it.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:39:51):
Um, you know, when you go to, if you go to whole foods and you buy an organic apple, has that ever been to for pesticide? No, but you’re trusting that, that it is going to be okay. And it is going to be healthy. This industry being pretty new and, and vastly unregulated it’s it is the wild, wild west. The great thing about the, the THC side in dispensaries is those are tested the, and, and we register our products actually through the same metric system. So they, they verify all the testing. And if you’re buying at a dispensary, what is on the label, it’s pretty well verified for what’s in it. But if you, um, back to your question about not feeling anything, because we hear that a lot, you know, if you bought a, a little cheap bottle from seven 11, and you put two drops in your mouth, not only is that a subs therapeutic dose for any adult, but that’s, you know, what was the quality and what’s actually in the product I I’m of the opinion.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:40:51):
And I, and I totally could be wrong, but that it does work at some level for everyone, but C B, D C BDA is more subtle, and it might take a lot higher doses than what people are consuming. And I say that because of the receptor groups, I think the way it works on the receptor, it, it will, but it may just take a lot higher dose. And some people physiology are different. I’m a redhead. So I have really high tolerance for, um, for the, the, I mean, I, I don’t feel it. I mean, most people don’t like, feel a CBD product, like in your head, it’s not like you’re, oh, suddenly your mentation totally changes, but, but the pain and the inflammation may change, or the nausea may change. And maybe it generally is with plant medicine subtle enough that you it’s not. So aha. Now big doses of THC will definitely give you the aha at times. But yeah, I think, I think the dosage that people are taking and the quality are the biggest factors.
Adam Pulford (00:41:52):
I gotcha. Okay. So from the say regulatory standpoint, there’s, there’s some governance, let’s just say at least in Colorado that has some guidance and maybe a little bit oversight, but not a ton. And so it’s really left up to the company to take on that responsibility for themselves to like, you just kind of showed us. There is like, here’s, what’s in our product, here’s our product kind of thing.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:42:18):
It’s up to the consumer to be able to look at that and be able to, oh, totally dis distinguish, distinguish between companies that are reputable and those that are not.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:42:27):
And I don’t think we’re used to that, like to my apple example, you’re not, you’re not checking brands or, or cos on your, and, and you may not even on, on some other things, you know, you’re just like, well, I’m sure it’s fine. Right. This pharmaceutical, I just picked up from Walgreens is I’m sure it’s fine. Someone tested this. Right. And I don’t think we are quite as programmed to like question it, you know, but when you pick an olive oil, what are you looking for? Are you looking for cold press? Are you looking for extra to Virgin olive oil? That’s kind of an analogy on like, there’s a lot of ways to do it. So if consumer is, you know, is educated enough to know, to pick the quality products.
Adam Pulford (00:43:06):
Yeah. Um, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And it’s also, you know, I think it speaks to one, one of the primary reasons why I wanna do this podcast is just get more information to people that are curious so that they have, uh, more informed decision making, um, for themselves. Right. So that they, as opposed to myself, it’s like, oh, I read something about it five years ago, I’m gonna stay away from it. It’s like, ah, stuff’s changed. Right. Um, now go back to my example here real quick. I, I do know that the, the CBD product that I got was from col, like it was made in Colorado. And so if I took some, we know that, so it didn’t, I didn’t feel anything sensationally, whether it had any effect who knows. Right. Um, so it could have been a dosage issue. Um, I don’t know if there was anything else in it necessarily, but I also read that CBD works pretty darn good with just a touch of THC. Is that true? And why does that happen?
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:44:09):
Well, there’s something called the entourage effect and that is the combination of the whole plant is what has the most effect. And so when you take out certain cannabinoids, the isolates that it may not work as well as the plant and its entirety. And so even, I always say that the THC sort of kicks that CBD into gear. And the nice thing is, is that when you combine the C B D with the THC, if you do it at the right ratio, the CBD will actually take away or ameliorate that high that you get from the THC. So I am a me medical cannabis user, and I use cannabis during the day, but I don’t wanna be high during the day because that will impede my bill to work. So I buy it in ratios that are higher in CBD D than they are in THC. So I’m getting some beneficial effects of the THC, but the CB and beneficial effects from the CBD. So I’m getting both together, but the CBD is taking away that high of the THC so that I can go about my work and do what I need, but get the effects that I
Adam Pulford (00:45:12):
Interesting. And you, you said that was the entourage effect,
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:45:14):
The entourage effect.
Adam Pulford (00:45:16):
I do like that term. Um,
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:45:18):
One thing, it, it’s a, it’s a nifty term.
Adam Pulford (00:45:20):
It’s a nifty
Stacy Cason, MS (00:45:21):
Term it’s term. It was first done in, in Israel years ago. And, and it’s been repeated over and over and, and what it is, it’s like every part of the plant in concert works together, just even pieces of the hole. And so there’s synergistic effects. And some of it is linked to, there was a study that came out of, um, Australia last summer that showed kind of the building blocks of the, the acidic cannabinoids help the, the others find to additional receptors. And then they’re also big role of like the flavanoids natural plant material. So having that whole plant is greater than just pulling out one or two isolated molecules of cannabinoids.
Adam Pulford (00:46:02):
So when I’ve spoken to nutritionist and even I did, uh, an episode on the train ride podcast with, um, another company that had, they were using plant phytochemicals in their product in, in basically what they said too. They didn’t use the fancy term entourage effect, but what they alluded to was, you know, the reason why we put X amount in as opposed to one is because we tested. And we know that this one thing, if this is what we want works way better in energy with the rest of these chemicals and that, and it’s all plant based. It’s all coming from that. So it’s, there’s a lot of parallels kind of coming in from, I guess, the stuff I know to what we’re talking about right now, which is, which is really good to hear. Yeah. But the entourage effect that is,
Stacy Cason, MS (00:46:48):
It’s like two plus two equals five. It’s greater than the, the sum
Adam Pulford (00:46:52):
Of the parts. Exactly. Yeah. That’s super cool. Did not know that. Um, so, so in, in that effect where my brain goes, and this is again, like maybe a little bit of a criticism, but if THC is the psychoactive stuff, that makes me feel good. Right. Um, and CBD is there and there’s some entourage effect going on. Um, perhaps then could it be like toothpaste where, and this is something that I learned about toothpaste is the foaming action of toothpaste does nothing to clean, but it feels really cool. And it has this like sensation that’s going on similar to like the mint as well, the mint kind of freshens, but doesn’t do anything for cleaning. So in a product that has CBD, could you add in just a little bit more THC just to make you like, feel good to make you want to take more, or is that like a strategy that some companies use or like, is there more to it than that? I think we covered it with the entourage effect, but is that something to watch how it for, for consumers,
Stacy Cason, MS (00:47:50):
There are some that, that do kind of have little recipes and blend different pieces on the hemp side, on the CBD side, we’re limited that the THC content cannot be above 0.3%. So a lot of people get really close in Colorado. It’s three, 9%, but we can’t go above that and still be legal now, is it done? Okay. I’m sure in the dispensary, on, on the regulated marijuana side, so you’re, they can play with the ratios quite a bit more, but if your goal is to get high, then you most, um, don’t want much CBD because to a join point, it tends to attend the high. Interestingly C B D does not do that. So, um, but there are, there are, it’s allowed to kind of mix and blend if whatever your desired effective.
Adam Pulford (00:48:45):
So yeah, I mean, and that’s, and that’s fair, right? Cause it’s, you know, the, the practice of, uh, if it’s already working and intellectually, you know, that the entourage effect is occurring in that there is some benefit there. You can also, you know, experiment with the sensational aspect of it too. And it’s, but as long as it’s kind of within reason or within like the, kind of the, the governance that you said, it’s like, that’s all good.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:49:09):
Okay. Well, people take it for such different reasons that they kind of goal with the product and, and even the same person, you may, you may want a product to help you sleep and you won’t hire THC for that, but you may want a product in the morning. Um, so you don’t have pain during the day and therefore you would not want high THC. So you may actually have different even within one individual have kind of products for different use
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:49:32):
Cases. That’s what I do.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:49:33):
Adam Pulford (00:49:35):
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:49:36):
Interesting. Higher, higher THC for sleep or only THC for sleep, but more CBD during the day. Yeah. So that, that’s the thing is that there is no recipe of what’s gonna work and everybody is so different and everybody’s needs are so different. And so is going to take some self experiment to figure out what works the best. And the mantra in the world of cannabis is start logo slow. So that means that you start at a low dose and you stay there for a little while, and then you just titrate up very slowly because you wanna take the lowest therapeutic dose possible. So if you, if 25 milligrams of CBD work for you, then there’s no need to take 50 milligrams of CBD. And same with THC. If five milligrams is adequate for you to sleep, no need to take 10. So you wanna find that lowest dose that works for your needs. Um, and I should also give a caveat that canvas is not without its side effects and there could also be interactions with other pharmaceuticals that somebody’s taking. And so if somebody has never taken cannabis before, and they’re going to embark on a cannabis, you know, journey, it is good to speak with somebody, a, a physician or cannabis nurse to find out whether it’s compat with their needs and the medications that they’re on.
Adam Pulford (00:50:51):
Excellent. So I want to, I wanna segue to dosage since you just covered that, but what you just said there, in terms of like a cannabis nurse or a physician, like I was thinking physician is any general practitioner gonna know what to say to the, that naturally. So how do you, how do you find a cannabis nurse or a cannabis doctor? Well,
Stacy Cason, MS (00:51:13):
It’s starting to change. And actually, I, I taught a class to a medical school, but, but fact, you know, 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, we’re not teaching anything about cannabis or the end cannabinoid system or hardly nutrition even in medical school. Yeah. So, so most, most physicians in my experience are gonna be like, well, I don’t know. I learned it as a drug and, uh, I don’t know what it does. Um, and then you also hear people say there’s never been an overdose death from cannabis. And I, I think that’s still true. Although there are plenty that go to the hospital with hyperemesis is constantly vomiting cuz they took 500 milligrams on a gummy or something. So it’s not to her point. It’s not without side effects for sure. Um, but the reason with the pharmaceutical bit is because cannabis is metabolized in our livers and the cytochrome P P four 50 system, which is the same way that like alcohol and most all pharmaceuticals are.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:52:07):
So if you’re taking like antidepressants SRIs end up being a common one, because those particular drugs have really long halflife, it tends to accumulate more. And so if you have more of those enzymes trying to break down, metabolized the pharmaceuticals, you don’t have as many available for the cannabis or vice versa. And so you get a little higher blood levels because it’s not being broken down as readily. And that’s something that’s very individual and hard to know, but it can be affected by pharmaceuticals that you’re taking. So there is like a, got it. Is it called cannabis nurses association? Yeah. Le
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:52:47):
Well, there’s leaf four 11 that, uh, is in Colorado that you can call and have a discussion about it. And I find that cannabis nurses really have a lot of information and have had a lot of education and help patients immensely. And uh, to Stacy’s point, physicians do not know a lot about cannabis. And we actually did a study in a group of allergist, an international study, uh, in Europe, Canada in the us. And the knowledge was not as good as we would’ve liked because uh, their patients can have, uh, adverse effects if they’re smoking allergist or seeing patients with asthma. And if you have asthma, you really shouldn’t be smoking or vaping cannabis. You don’t wanna inhale it because it’s not good for your lungs. And so these doctors need to be able to talk to their patients about cannabis because it so happens that we also did a study in allergic and asthmatic individuals and they are using cannabis and they’re inhaling it and they have uncon trolled asthma and they’re coughing. And so there’s this disconnect between what the patients are doing and what the doctors know. And so one of the, one of the grants that we have through our foundation is to create educational materials for allergists so that they can learn about the endocannabinoid system, the history of cannabis, the nomenclature, and how to talk to their patients about cannabis.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:54:06):
Another organiz. That’s awesome. That’s, it’s based in Colorado, but it’s a nonprofit organization in the realm for many years is realm of caring. And so they’re, they have a website realm of caring.org. Um, they’re actually based in the Springs and, and they have manned phones. So you can call and talk to a trained cannabis provider and or what are they educator so they can give dosing instructions. And they, they range from like children with autism and seizures disorders all the way to like terminal cancer patients to the 40 year old cyclists that just gets neck pain after a long ride. So they they’re trained to, to kind of educate and give dosing advice on a wide lit me. And the nice thing is they’re, they’re independent, right? They’re not representing any brand. Um, and they do CBD THC or minor cannabinoids. So, um, they’re actually a great source for education as well.
Adam Pulford (00:55:04):
Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. We’ll link to all those in our show notes as well. Cause I know we have some research from Joanna that will include in there too. Uh, but back to dosage since we are kind of talking about dosage and, and finding out, trying to get our listeners, if they are curious to find out how to do this, um, you said start low, go slow. And I like that makes sense. So how low to start? And I’d say let’s just use IAM Adam over here as an example. Um, and I maybe say 70 kilograms or so, um, a very non-user of sorts. Where would you, you say, I should start from a standpoint of C B D usage.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:55:53):
So I actually have, and I’m gonna try and find it.
Adam Pulford (00:55:56):
Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say, looks like Joan speak
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:55:59):
For, so, uh, yeah, it’s called a routine protocol for medical cannabis, dosing and administration. And this is a published paper, um, from 2021 and, uh, Bosco at all in journal of cannabis research, I wanna give them credit or credit deal and it was published, uh, I think of March of last year. And so this is their dosing recommendation. So they say that you start with CBD as CBD and the CBD starting dose would be five milligrams twice per day. Then the titration up would be to 10 milligrams per day, every two to, uh, to increase that 10 milligrams a day, every two to three days. So you’d start with five milligrams twice a day. And then every two to three days, you’d increase at 10 milligrams until you get to a dose that you feel, gee, I’m at a dose that feels good, or it’s doing what I want to do. Um, if the patient is not reaching goals, when CBD predominant dose is greater than or equal to 40 milligrams per day, then you start adding THC.
Adam Pulford (00:57:00):
Ah, that’s how you do. Okay.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:57:02):
So once you get to 40 milligrams of CBD, then you start at the THC and then you start your THC dose with your CBD dose at 2.5 milligrams of THC. And then you increase by 2.5 milligrams. Every two to seven days until goals are met or a maximum maximum dose of purity milligrams per day of THC is reached
Adam Pulford (00:57:24):
Maximum of high, much
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:57:26):
40 milligrams per day of THC, which is, to me, that sounds like a lot, but for some people it’s not so everybody’s different, but anyway, so this is the recommendation that was given in this paper.
Adam Pulford (00:57:38):
Got you. Um, yeah, that does sound like a lot and this I’ll,
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:57:42):
I will, um, send you a PDF of this and maybe you can put that up cause that’s hard to understand and it was a lot of information. And so I’ve got a nice chart that shows that.
Adam Pulford (00:57:51):
Yeah, no, I mean, I think that’s awesome. I mean, it’s very similar to like a, like a air pressure calculator, uh, for athletes trying to figure out how, how low to take their tire pressure these days. Um, cuz it all depends. Right? Yeah. And um, but starting to explore that
Stacy Cason, MS (00:58:09):
Actually sounds lower than I would’ve expected on the CBD side. The dosage of,
Adam Pulford (00:58:15):
I, I was just gonna say the CBD sounded lower. The THC sounded higher. And the only reason why I say that the CBD sounded lower is because you were talking about some research where it was like something like, like
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:58:27):
One to five, one to five milligrams for kilogram is what
Adam Pulford (00:58:30):
They all for kilogram. Yeah. Cause I was like, wait, what? I mean? That’s
Stacy Cason, MS (00:58:33):
Like, yeah. So
Adam Pulford (00:58:34):
Stacy Cason, MS (00:58:35):
There was a big study that came out in January from Oregon state university, um, Dr. Richard van Greenman at all and they found C B D a plus C BGA blocks the transmission of COVID and they go into a explanation on kind of the lock and key effects of receptors. And so the ACE receptor, the outside of the cell is how the virus transmits itself from cell to cell C B D a C B G a layman’s terms kind of changes the shape of that key so that it can no longer enter the cell. So then the question is, what dosage were you talking about? Um, and in the study, you, we did the math that kind of calculated out. It comes out to be like 800 milligrams, which is doable. That that’s a big dose. I actually take pretty high doses myself. It T
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (00:59:24):
BT a it’s just very cost, very cost prohibitive.
Stacy Cason, MS (00:59:26):
It’s cost prohibitive. Yeah. But yeah, it’s cost prohibitive, but on a more practical standpoint and I try to bring things back to like what’s practical and what can I, you know, recommend patients that that’s everyday usable. The say the Portland business journal asked the researcher because there’s, there’s not a lot of CBD on the market. They, they actually found us, they looked at our COAs and he said, yes, that would work. So all of a sudden we’re selling tons of these soft channels because he said, yes, this part thing. Right. So now we’ve taken the data from those cost that have purchased and looked, um, will be publishing soon, looked at how many of them had COVID compared to the national average at that point, if they were ingesting CBD D and I can tell you, none of them were taking anywhere near that high dose most were in the 25 to 50 range.
Stacy Cason, MS (01:00:16):
So like on a practical dosing standpoint, um, we also people starting at like 25 milligrams, uh, maybe a little bit lower, but kind of start with that. And then I got actually would split it to twice a day before you start taking more at once because the half is relatively short. And so depending on what you’re taking it for, but we have a lot of people take like to get twice a day and then you can get your kind of round the clock benefits and it is a slow gradual buildup. So, um, I fully agree with the start slow start low and take it slow.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (01:00:51):
Gotcha. Especially with THC. Oh, more so than with CBD. More so than with CBD.
Stacy Cason, MS (01:00:57):
Adam Pulford (01:00:58):
Yeah. Yeah. Makes, makes a lot of sense. Um, so as it pertains, you kind of like the endurance athletes speaking to, uh, some of the benefits that you can get. Um, I I’ve read stuff on labels, like, uh, full spectrum CBD or broad spectrum CBD. Um, what does that mean? Is that important? And anything else that you wanna speak to on the spectrums, if you will,
Stacy Cason, MS (01:01:28):
It’s a, it’s become an actual legal definition, um, labels it’s in Colorado. So full spectrum indicates that it’s all of the cannabinoids that were grown in that plant and the genetics of each plant will kind of fluctuate the ratios, but there may be 85 to a hundred cannabinoids in, in a plant. So full spectrum means that you extracted everything that was in that plant all the cannabinoids, um, and then either the flavanoids or the terpenes. So it’s the idea of getting whole plant. And the purpose of that is back to the entourage effect. If you’re getting a full spectrum, you’re getting the entourage effect. If you’re pulling out an isolate, you’re getting one isolated molecule, which has benefits, but not as much as the full spectrum.
Adam Pulford (01:02:20):
Gotcha. And then what is broad spectrum?
Stacy Cason, MS (01:02:23):
Broad spectrum can mean they took two isolates and put it together. So it’s kind of everything in between. If you say an isolate and a full spectrum are the two, like the two, um, book ins boundaries, broad spectrum can be everything in between. And what some company is do is they’ll take a C B D molecule, and a C, B or a CBN, or they’ll kind of mix a couple of isolates together.
Adam Pulford (01:02:51):
Okay. And so my brain goes in two different ways. One kind of back to the athlete in the testing pool, do they need to worry about taking something that is full spectrum or broad spectrum since it is so broad in, in what it’s encapsulating there, or is that advantageous to somebody in, in the, just to get the benefits out of CBD? What are the implications, I guess, for an athlete in a testing pool in that regard,
Stacy Cason, MS (01:03:21):
I think it is advantageous to have full spectrum. And if it’s, if it’s a CBD product or something kind of on the de decaffeinated side, it is by law across the us less than 0.3% THC. So that’s a pretty low amount and that’s by dry weight. So you’re gonna have a low amount of THC. Um, and so the likely hood of having a positive test over that threshold is pretty low. Um, but for people like we have like say it’s someone in the military who that to get drug tested and you’re really concerned about any THC, um, that sort topicals can be really nice cuz the topical acts on local receptors and you get about to 10% systemic absorption. So once it’s diluted into a topical, which is typically more dilutes than UN adjustable and then you’ve got, um, what Little’s absorbed systemically, the chances are incredibly low. So I actually, we can, some of those products, you know, you know, fill path drug test.
Adam Pulford (01:04:24):
Gotcha. And Joanna, did you have anything to add to that?
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (01:04:27):
Well, I, we did a study, uh, in athletes a few years ago and we didn’t look at dosing, uh, because people are historically not very good at reporting how much they’re taking. Just like when I asked you how much are you taking? And you didn’t know that that’s very common is that most people don’t really know how much they’re taking and that it’s because of a variety of reasons, but people do know if they’re using CBD or THC, um, that, that they can tell you with good, um, accuracy. And we did find in our study that athletes who were using a combination of CBD and THC, sorry, either using THC by itself or CBD in combination with th he had the most benefit for things like improved sleep, more energy, um, decreased pain, decreased anxiety, um, more calm. Um, but on the flip side they also had more adverse effects.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (01:05:22):
Um, they were reported at a much lower rate. Um, and some of the adverse effects that we saw with people who were using THC or the combination of THC and C D where things, uh, ironically enough, it increases anxiety. And it also decreases anxiety. It’s into those drugs that if you get the dosage, right, it can be helpful for anxiety, but if you don’t get it right, it could cause anxiety. So people did report anxiety, uh, lack of concentration in increased appetite. Those were the three major ones that we saw some very serious events like cardiovascular or respiratory reported at quite a low rate.
Adam Pulford (01:05:58):
Gotcha. Yeah. Bill curved, everything. Right.
Stacy Cason, MS (01:06:01):
It’s biphasic response actually with PhD and C B D if a little does this, but actually too much, you know, you can take it for nausea, but if you take too much, you actually get nauseous. That’s actually another unique thing with the aesthetics C B, D a is completely linear. You don’t have that biphasic response.
Adam Pulford (01:06:19):
Interesting. Interesting. So, along with that, I, I think it’s important to know. I mean, you, you mentioned like a, like a topical, um, CBD. We didn’t talk about that. We were kind of talking about pills and pictures so far, um, are, so I, I assume that there is some benefits to, uh, topical bone or solves or whatever, is it just as effective, a little less effective, more effective? Uh, can you speak to that a little bit more in terms of like where an athlete should start, if they’re like, oh, I don’t wanna put that in my body, but I’ll put it on my body.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (01:06:53):
Yeah. It’s different
Stacy Cason, MS (01:06:54):
Different. Our, um, our muscle Rob is actually a Chris Carmichael inspired product and I got to go down to Chey canyon and, you know, do some kind of film to launch this, which is really fun. Um, if, if it’s somewhere on your body that you can point to the pain, then a topical will work. So the muscle rub for example, is our topical, which this is the one I use all the time. So it’s the twist up and roll on. And then you didn’t get your hands greasy is important before you’re getting on a bike, I think. Yeah, for sure. So like you can rub it on your temples for, or for a headache. Um, you see, use it a lot for menstrual cramps, you know, roll that on instead of taking, um, an ibuprofen or something. So if it’s, if it’s a, a knee, a NACA shoulder, whatever it’s topical little pipe pain, then, then the topics actually do really well for that. If it’s something like sleep anxiety, um, nausea, something that affects your whole body, then you’re, you’re really gonna need an adjustable. And I think especially with more pain, the magic is to do both. So have an adjustable that you take a low dose every day just to satisfy satiate endocannabinoid system and keep all the, um, systemic inflammation modulated, and then use a topical additionally as needed. Like if your shoulder flared up after a swim, then okay. Rub that on today and get that to calm down.
Adam Pulford (01:08:18):
Gotcha. Anything to add that to that Joanna, um, also kind of,
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (01:08:23):
I agree if, if something that you can feel on top of is great, but if it’s something systemic, then you need to take it systemically.
Adam Pulford (01:08:30):
Got it. Yeah. That’s a good rule of thumb. I like that. Um,
Adam Pulford (01:08:38):
All right. So Joanna, you, you kind of, you’ve had a journey, like kind of the athlete journey, the research journey that kind of brought you to where you are at right now, um, to our listeners. Why do you think that athletes should be informed about what CBD is? As opposed to this guy who saw some stuff outta stand was like, oh, maybe I’ll try. It does nothing for me. And that’s, that’s it for my journey. What would you say to the athletes listening right now that may be a little bit critical, um, that you want them to know.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (01:09:14):
It’s not for everybody and that’s okay. It’s not gonna it up for everyone. It’s not gonna cure everything. It it’s something that you need to educate yourself about and decide whether it’s right for you. I think it can be a very important part of a health and wellness regimen, but it’s not the cure all, and it’s not the be all end all. You still have to work hard if, you know, if you’re an athlete using it, it’s not like you’re gonna take cannabis and okay, well, I can stop training now, or I don’t need to sleep, or I don’t need to eat healthily, or I don’t need to do appropriate recovery. It’s just one part of a multimodal approach to health and wellness. And for athletes, I think that it can be something very beneficial, um, if used properly, but athletes needs to educate themselves and you know, the information, is it gonna just fall into their laps?
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (01:09:59):
You know, you need to learn about it, just like you need to learn about how to train. You need to learn how to use cannabis, because it, it can have beneficial effects, but it also can have adverse effects. And so people need to make informed decisions about whether or not they want to start a cannabis program, whether they want to continue with it, they need to define why they’re using it. Um, just like they would, uh, for their training. You know, why are you training? Are you training for a race? What are your goals for this? And so when I ask people, well, why are you using cannabis? And they just say, well, I want to feel better. Well, what does that mean? What do you want to feel better? Do you want to sleep better? Do you want better recovery? Do you want to enjoy your sports more? Uh, what, what is your primary goal? So you need to define that and if you don’t know why you’re using it, it’s going to be much more difficult to determine whether or not it’s working.
Adam Pulford (01:10:47):
That’s a great answer. That’s a wonderful answer. Stacy. I’ll, I’ll go to you. Next is in this kind of like the final kind of summary question is if somebody is pretty skeptical, just in terms of like the business, a side of things, um, you’re selling snake oil. You’re, uh, it’s a crazy wild, wild west sort of thing that I’m sure you’ve heard plenty of times. Yeah. Um, what would you say to that listener that’s has, has listened to us thus far and is like, eh, I still don’t know.
Stacy Cason, MS (01:11:17):
I, I do think quality matters. So I think finding a quality product, you know, it’s grown from a plant, um, that was extracted and, and produced properly. So yeah, there are scary things. There are multi-level marketing companies for everything from China that has tons of pesticides and Hexa in it. And those that’s going to attenuate the goodness of the plant, but don’t lose hope because there’s one bad egg, right. There’s plenty that are doing it right. And that are doing the testing and that are backed with integrity in science. So I would, you know, educate your self enough to find a quality product that’s doing third party testing that is labeled appropriately so that you know what you’re putting into your body and then track it, take like a journal of sorts, um, to Joanna’s point, none of what she said about exactly. Why do you wanna feel better?
Stacy Cason, MS (01:12:12):
We all wanna feel better. Does that mean for me, that may mean that I sleep better, or it may mean that you recover faster after one of your massive power meter workouts, Adam. So you just track what you, what you wanna notice and then take it a low dose for two weeks and, and start looking at what symptoms might have improved or kinda what you notice in yourself. And athletes are a great test market, because typically we’re more in tune with our bodies and you care more about what you put into your bodies. You know, we’re typically not the ones going through McDonald’s at 2:00 AM and land on the couch all day. Right. You’re a little better typically with, um, with the right nutrition and, and the right supplements and, and think of our bodies as, as vessels and, and treating them well. So I would continue that with the cannabis products and use something that says tested of high quality.
Adam Pulford (01:13:07):
Yeah. That it makes a lot of sense. And I think like, again, for me, when we kind of just started, um, down this real would of, Hey, should we do this interview at first? I was like, I dunno if I really want to. And the more I started to learn, I was like, uh, there’s a lot of new research out there. And with Stacy kind of being involved, I was like, you know what, I’ll give this a go and got to know a little bit more about Joanna and then started to learn more about where CBD is at right now, personally. Uh, again, like haven’t taken much, but from what I’ve learned thus far is there seems to be some potential benefits there, right? There’s also some adversity or some adverse effects that can happen. Um, however, the cost benefit, you know, doesn’t the cost doesn’t seem to be, um, significant to the, the potential benefit.
Adam Pulford (01:14:00):
If you go two weeks, you start low and go slow and you figure out it’s not for you. Great. Yeah. Maybe out a little bit of money and, and, but you tried something, you know, and I, and I think trying something being open to something, I think that’s okay and where our society is at right now with the stigma of this substance, I think is actually pretty healthy in terms of where the trajectory is going. Um, anytime that we can break down some barriers and stuff that’s been around for 3000 years, that is plant based, you know, that’s and not to, to be like a, a, a sell for Stacy’s product or something. It’s, it’s more about challenging your own Biase I think like in, in your head, right. Challenging yourself in our society as a whole. But then I would say kind of the criticism of what have also learned thus far is it’s gonna be another hobby for you too.
Adam Pulford (01:14:49):
Right? So if you are, if you are into tubeless, you know, going tubeless on your road or mountain bike, managing your tire pressure, managing a Mo how much tube or tubeless sealant you have in there. Like it’s a whole thing that you gotta keep track on with a little diary of when did I last top that off? What pressure do I run in this? And so same thing with CBD, it sounds like CBD, THC, the ratio for the morning, the ratio for night and all this kind of stuff. So if you, if you want to pursue a journey like that, just know that you’re getting into a hobby from the sounds of it, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, but
Stacy Cason, MS (01:15:24):
It definitely doesn’t
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (01:15:25):
Happen. It’s not as onerous as you. Yeah.
Stacy Cason, MS (01:15:26):
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (01:15:27):
It’s not as onerous as you’re saying. Okay. And, and they do have apps. They have apps that you can track your use as well. Yeah. Which makes it a lot easier.
Adam Pulford (01:15:34):
There’s an answer, everything
Stacy Cason, MS (01:15:35):
ISN there, a practic practical aspect, take one in the morning and then try that for a few. Then take one in the morning and one at night and just track that, um, see, yeah. See how, how you feel, what you notice. And sometimes people are, it’s funny. We, we give samples that say, that may be a, a seven day, a 10 day sample. Nah, whatever. It’s okay. And then they run out and a week later, in fact, I got a email this morning from my customer. Who’s like, oh, you know, I haven’t felt this good the last week. And I just didn’t know what it was. And I ran out of my products. And so sometimes
Adam Pulford (01:16:09):
Stacy Cason, MS (01:16:09):
It is subtle and it’s kind of slowing and growing. And then when you stop with your cessation, you’re like, oh gosh, my knee is killing me. I didn’t maybe realize how much the C, B, D a was helping until I stopped.
Adam Pulford (01:16:23):
Yeah. That’s, that’s interesting. And I, and I would say too, when it get people starting to sleep well after, oh, all need is five or six hours, then I challenge ’em okay. Let’s get seven, let’s get eight. And then they go and they have five or six. They’re like, Ooh, I feel terrible. Cuz they don’t know. Right. Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, we’re, we’re getting, I mean, we’re kind of over time, a little bit. We’ve, we’ve hit the primary, big points that I wanted to. There’s still some, some rabbit holes we didn’t go down, but I think this has been an awesome conversation. Uh, again, I thank you, both Joanna and Stacy for being a part of it. And uh, is there any final words that you have, um, to our audience, uh, Joanna, in terms of the research or Stacy in terms of the product that you wanted to, uh, kinda leave with us,
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (01:17:13):
If anyone has any questions, send me an email.
Adam Pulford (01:17:16):
Cool. Do you wanna,
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (01:17:18):
I’m happy to answer questions.
Adam Pulford (01:17:19):
Do you wanna verbalize your email and then we’ll also put it in show notes where people can jot it down or go get it? Yep.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (01:17:25):
It’s Joanna Zeiger Z E I G E firstname.lastname@example.org.
Adam Pulford (01:17:30):
Zeiger like tiger folks.
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (01:17:33):
Adam Pulford (01:17:33):
Right. Uh, yes. And Stacy, if they wanted to try your product, uh, if they’re curious, where would you send them? Yes.
Stacy Cason, MS (01:17:41):
Planetary.com, P L a N E T a R I E, or planet a R i.com. Um, and all the CTF guys get 10% off. So the code a checkout is TF. So if you’re listening, you can get your 10% off. If you have questions, very open to that, which we have tons of material, um, on our website, the white paper on the website. If you have any other questions, um, there’s a phone number online and also you can email email@example.com.
Adam Pulford (01:18:14):
Excellent. Well, thanks again to you both and thanks for being part of the train ride podcast. Thank
Joanna Zeiger, MS, PhD (01:18:19):
You. Thank you very much.