Jill Patterson cycling

How to Get Faster on the Bike – Part 3, The Climbing Episode w/ Nat’l Champion Jill Patterson

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Topics Covered In This Episode:

  • Top 5 factors for faster climbing: pacing, increasing power to weight ratio, wise equipment choices, course intel, personal intel
  • How to use Strava as a pacing and KOM/QOM planning tool
  • Using RPE to gauge pacing and sustainability
  • Are you a Steady or Punchy climber?
  • Pacing for climbs you have never climbed before
  • Keeping your mind in the game on difficult climbs
  • Safe and effective ways to target power-to-weight ratio
  • Best hill climbing workouts for novice riders
  • Best hill climbing workouts for advanced riders

GUEST

Jill Patterson started road biking when she was living in Japan as an English teacher. After doing well in local races she was recruited by a  women’s team, Asahi Muur Zero (now disbanded). She rode with them for three years and did several international UCI stage races in China, Thailand, and the US (Joe Martin Stage Race and Tour of the Gila, 2016).  After returning to the US at the end of 2016 she followed a more structured training program and experienced big increases in my endurance, power and fitness.  I prefer long and hilly gran fondo and road race courses, and in 2021 also started riding gravel. Jill is coached by CTS Coach Adam Pulford and won the 2022 USA Cycling Gran Fondo National Championship.

SHOW LINKS

Listen to the episode on Apple PodcastsSpotifyStitcherGoogle Podcasts, or on your favorite podcast platform


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Episode Transcription:

Please note that this is an automated transcription and may contain errors. Please refer to the episode audio for clarification.

Adam Pulford (00:01):

Climbing faster is on the top of the goals list. When I talk to many athletes about what they want to improve on in their cycling journey, if you’re preparing for any event like gravel races, road races, most mountain bike races, and really anything that’s not a flat criterium or something on the Velo room, improving your hill climb ability is going to increase your performance for that event. So I thought it’d be a natural fit to round out that three part series of how to get faster here on the train rank podcast, by talking specifically about how to climb faster, it’s been a few weeks longer than I’d planned to get this third part wrapped up, but I’m glad we doing so today. If you missed the parts one and two, no worries. Just scroll back in your podcast feed and you’ll find them, but don’t worry.

Adam Pulford (00:50):

You don’t have to listen to those to enjoy the show today. So keep listening now, as we meet our guest and learn how to climb faster, Jill Patterson is an athlete I work with here in Washington, DC. She’s become a really great friend who I train with race with. And I also coach she won the, we do hill climb challenge back in 2021. If people were following that multiple GF, N Y grand fondos and is the current us grand Fondo national champion, as you can deduce from this like shortened list of all of her achievements in the sport, you can tell that she’s pretty good at peddling uphill. So Jill, welcome to the show.

Jill Patterson (01:33):

Thank you, Adam. I’m so happy to be a guest today.

Adam Pulford (01:36):

Yeah, yeah. I’m, I’m happy that you’re here. And finally we get to record this thing. So for our listeners who don’t know much about you, can you share who you are and what you do?

Jill Patterson (01:48):

Okay. Sure. So I started road biking about 13 years ago when I was living in Japan and I started with touring and there was a group ride there. And as I got faster, I did my feet into racing and he’ll climbs are very popular there. So I did a lot of hill climbing races. And then I joined after a few years, I joined a women’s team and I traveled with them to races all over Japan. And I actually got to go to a few international UCI stage races very early in my racing career. And that was just a great opportunity. I learned a lot from that, but I also, at that time really didn’t know about proper training. I didn’t have a coach and I wasn’t really doing it in a good or sustainable way and I burned out. So in 2016, I moved back from Japan.

Jill Patterson (02:39):

I’d been there about 10 years. And then I moved to the us with the intention of basically giving up cycling, just doing it as a hobby. And I moved to Washington DC, and I had no idea coming here that it was going to be such a cycling Mecca. And I quickly got sucked up into the group rides. I realized there were a lot of very talented and strong riders here and they kind of encouraged me and I discovered grand fondos. I did a few races and I just absolutely fell in love with the, the grand Fondo format. And so I kind of fell back in love with cycling and I had intended to stop, but I definitely did not. And then I hired a coach, got much better. I studied about cycling. My level really started to improve compared to where I was in Japan. And then I thought let’s take all this knowledge and experience. And I became a coach myself. And about year ago I made the jump to full time coaching and that’s where I am now.

Adam Pulford (03:44):

Hmm. Very cool. And yeah, to your point, like when I first moved here to DC, I was like, it’s over man. Like I’m gonna sell my bikes and just become the fat internet coach. I tell that people to, to people, whenever they ask me, like, how’s DC, that’s what I tell him. But you know, what you hit on was just that like the, the cycling community here is huge. Like there’s a fast group ride every single day of the week and it is, it is a cycling me. So if anybody is in DC or wants to come check it out, hit up Jill and I, and we’ll, we’ll take, we’ll take you out on all the good fun group rides. So but thanks for that intro on you, Jill, and you know, for our audience, you know, we’re just starting to scratch the surface of what kind of Jill does and knows about hill climbing. So we’ll get into that here in a second, but I wanna do a quick shout out for a mutual friend, fanboy fellow coach out there who I met this year, his name’s Lee Sansad and he’s a follower and listener of the train right podcast. And we just randomly met at amateur nationals. We talked for over an hour about like all the things that guy has a ton of energy. And then I learned too that he’s a really good friend of you, Jill, right?

Jill Patterson (04:54):

Yeah. I, Lee is fantastic. I’ve known him and worked with him for years.

Adam Pulford (04:58):

So Lee, if you’re tuning in, thank you for listening and thank you for being awesome and have a ton of energy for this sport. So <laugh>, I just wanted to throw that shout out out there. So, all right, now let’s get onto the show here. Jill. Let’s, let’s talk about how to climb faster. When I was shaping up this episode, I, I was trying to like boil it down into like, like three things if I could. And when I think about how to improve someone’s hill climb ability or getting you faster on the hill climb the way, the way I kind of like reduce it down to is, is pacing increased power to weight ratio and really like wise equipment choices. Is there anything that you’d want to add to that?

Jill Patterson (05:44):

Yeah, so I think those are the important ones, but just in general, I would say knowledge and I would say knowledge of two things. First, you need to know the Hills you’re doing, you know, are they five minutes? Are they 20 minutes? Are they steep? Are they not quite so steep? Are they undulating? So the more knowledge you have of the terrain or the hill you’re, you’re attacking the better, and then also knowledge of yourself and what you can do for X amount of minutes. Are you a steady state rider? Are, do you prefer more undulating pace? And I think we’re gonna get into that a bit more.

Adam Pulford (06:14):

Those are really excellent points to bring up because knowing the course, you know, whether, and we’ll kind of get into like how you’re looking at some of your courses and stuff like this, but in, you know, for a lot of pros out there, the they’ll recon courses, routes and hill climbs either, you know, the week of several times say if it’s a cross country, mountain bike race, you know, we’ll go spend several days on a course before we actually race it, or there’ll be months and years ahead of time, like tour France or world championships, you know, they’ll spend significant, significant amounts of time. You know, justing certain parts of the course, including hill climbs to really get, get it down so that they understand and get that knowledge. So if we start with pacing, when I say, when I say pacing, like what would be a good working definition, Jill, that you use maybe working with your athletes or how you think about pacing for a hill climb?

Jill Patterson (07:11):

Well, it really depends on how long the climb is and you need to pace yourself to be able to basically not burn out before the end of the climb. So how you’re gonna pace a five minute climb versus an hour long climb are very, very different.

Adam Pulford (07:27):

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I I’d say like, because you have that, you know, the effort in the duration or the length, it’s, it’s more like an appropriate out output for the length or duration of the hill climb

Jill Patterson (07:40):

To make success. And I also wanna add success. Maybe it’s not just that one hill climb. If you’re just doing one great, go all out, burn all your matches by the top. That’s a great way to approach it. But if you’re in a race and you have 10 Hills to climb, you don’t wanna do that on the first hill. So you have to think of the bigger picture too.

Adam Pulford (07:55):

Exactly. Yeah. It’s, it’s, it is about that big picture, right? Like spanning the course of a, of a whole day or the, you know, that hill climb itself. So if we, if we keep on like reducing down and you do think about like an output for a certain length, and let’s just think of like like one hill climb, maybe your redo segment or something like that. When you are planning a pacing for a segment or the length of a hill climb, give us some insights into how you start thinking in plan for QM.

Jill Patterson (08:28):

Okay. So I’ve actually gone after lots of QMS, they vary from, you know, five minutes to four hours I’ve done before mm-hmm <affirmative> so, and those are all hill climbs. So I find Strava to be a very, very good tool I’m on there a lot. And I look at the leaderboard and I look at the people who are at the top of the leaderboard. I look at the Watts, they’ve put out if they don’t have Watts, I look at the time and then I’m also looking at the grade of the climb. And I like to know, okay, roughly how long might this climb take me? And that depends on the power I can put out and literally how long the climb is. So I’m looking at past climbs, I’ve done at similar grades. I’m trying to find similar ones and if I can match that power, and then I compare that power to the power that the other women put out and specifically the power to weight ratio, because it can vary. So it’s just kind of going back and forth a lot and, and really paying attention to the grade and the length of the climb.

Adam Pulford (09:34):

Yeah, exactly. So you’re, you’re out gathering data and essentially maybe translated into what, you know, you can do for a certain power duration, so to speak.

Jill Patterson (09:47):

Correct. Yeah. And I was in France this past summer and I was looking at some QMS when I was in Southern France. Those were less ridden Hills and there were some that I knew I might be able to get the QM. So I actually did go for those QMS. And then others, I looked at the leaderboards and I realized I can’t get those QMS. So I actually didn’t even try because I didn’t wanna burn my matches. So I, I try to pick and choose because you’ve limited, you know, QNS, you can go after on a trip, if you, if you’re doing these max efforts, you’re gonna burn out after a couple of those max efforts. So I did try to really save them for the ones where I actually had a chance of getting a QM.

Adam Pulford (10:28):

Yeah, yeah. For sure. For sure. When, when you’re going for a QM, I mean, I’m, I’m guessing, I mean, you know, we, we talk about rate of perceived effort on, well, I do that obviously with you, with my athletes, and we’ve talked about it on the podcast before scale of one to 10, 10 being a max effort and, you know, one being a super easy effort when you do QMS or KOMS, we’re talking like a 10 outta 10, right?

Jill Patterson (10:54):

That is correct. But you have to think about longer hill. You’re probably not gonna feel that 10 outta 10 until you’re towards the top. And you should not be feeling 10 outta 10. If you’re on a 30 minute climb in the first 10 minutes, if you’re at 10, that’s not good. Okay. But if you’re doing like a five minute climb and you’re outta 10 at the start. Mm. Maybe that’s okay. You can sustain that. So be careful with that perceived exertion, you do have to kind of keep an eye on it based on the length of the climb.

Adam Pulford (11:23):

This is that’s exactly my point. Yeah. Cause I was gonna say whether it is that five minute climb or the 60 minute, like it’s a max effort, but it is a max effort for that whole duration. So again, kind of thinking big picture, but also the context that we’re rolling into this. So as we start, you know, we’re kinda like shaping up like how to frame and plan for these hill climbs. And the other thing that goes into pacing, when I think about it too, is like, we don’t have the perfect, you know, 10 mile, 20 mile hill climb in Colorado or California at 3% grade all the time. We definitely don’t have that out here on the east coast. So when I think of, you know, when a, when a hill pitches up and comes down, it’s like, I call that the nature of the hill climb or it’s undulating versus steady. So when you’re looking at a, at a QM and you see the gradients kind of pitching up and down or more of a power punchy hill climb, how do you plan for that versus something that’s just more steady and where would you say your strengths lie with that?

Jill Patterson (12:27):

Okay. So my strengths definitely lie in the more steady climbs. And for many years I basically targeted longer road climbs and they do tend to be a bit more steady. So I was able to do that. And then I did the, we do segment, which was very interesting because that was gravel. And I went and I tried it three times and I knew it would take me about 20 minutes. And I knew the max power I could put out for 20 minutes. And the first two times on this climb, my average power was about 10 or 15 Watts below what I thought my max could be. And I was very frustrated because I didn’t understand why. So I thought about it. What is different about this? We do climb versus the road climbs that I’ve been doing and I’m used to, well, this was gravel and gravel roads are much more pitchy.

Jill Patterson (13:19):

You know, they’re much steeper at points and then they have flatter and then steep, flat, steep, flat. So I realized that on this gravel climb, unlike road, I was putting out much higher power at times. Like, let’s say I was trying to aim for two 70, well, I would go to 3, 3 15 at times because the road pitched up. So my third attempt, I thought, okay, I’m really gonna pay attention to this power. And I’m gonna try to simulate what I’m used to doing and I’m best at, at road climbs. And so even when it went really steep and I felt like, oh, I could put out higher power. I, I really checked myself and I really tried to stay close to that average goal of two 70 and low and behold. It was so interesting as I got towards the top of the climb, my power did not fade.

Jill Patterson (14:06):

It stayed steady at two 70 and I was able to keep it up. So I really learned so much from doing that. I realized, okay, I am a true steady state rider. And if I dip into that VO two or anaerobic, like two, three times, that’s gonna burn me out. So I’m better at staying below it. But I do train athletes who, if you ask them to do a steady state effort, they can’t do it for more than five minutes. It, that could be physical reasons. It could be mental reasons. They just get bored. I literally have some athletes tell me, Jill, I can’t do longer than a five minute interval. I can’t focus. So I try to find ways to get them to be able to do longer intervals, maybe adding some surges here and there. And so there are some riders who will do better with a surgi style. So you need to know your own style physically, but also mentally, what are you able to do best?

Adam Pulford (15:00):

I think with that, we do segment. I meant to go. I meant to look at that again before we were talking about it. But if I recall, like you went, you traveled down, you did it. I looked at the file and I made like a few circles where I was like, you know, burning some matches there, burning some matches there. And I, I knew that you’re just like more of a steady sort of person. And the plan essentially was, well, you’re gonna have to crack some eggs or, you know, burn some matches what we’re doing this, but, you know, lean into your strengths, Jill, and just kind of like keep a steady pressure on it, steady pressure. And that I, you know, you nailed it after that. And I think it also relates to like Hamburg that we just did this past weekend, right. Where everybody just like went flying up and I was just hovering by you.

Adam Pulford (15:46):

Cause I was like, you know, the plan was to hang, you know, hang together and ride the whole thing together. And it was like the first third bunch of people just blasted up and we were catching people left and right. Just like steady as you go. You know? So I think like again, when it comes to pacing, I, I would argue that steady as you goes is probably like the better option for this, but also knowing yourself, knowing myself and knowing if you have more anaerobic ability versus not that can play to the cards, you know, a little bit more there because I think that, you know, you’ve, you know, I I’ve got riders and I, and I’ve seen riders, they get on hill climbs or whatever. It’s just like, they can tolerate a very high call. It normalized power or a lot of surges throughout a a hill climb, which would pop you, it would pop me, but they can definitely handle it and they should, they should definitely do that more. So what are, what kind, what are some metrics or what’s some data that you’re looking at to like encourage a rider to drill it hard maybe, and, and, and lean into their anaerobic side on some of these hill climbs, like what what’s a metric you’re looking at and what sort of hill climbs would that be?

Jill Patterson (16:58):

Okay. So two metrics, I would look at literally what they’ve been riding and training. If they have not been training that anaerobic surging much, I would not encourage them to go do a hill climb and suddenly tap into that their body probably would be in shock and they wouldn’t do it well <laugh> if they have been doing a lot of that, then there’s a good chance that they could probably do well with the hill climb with that. I also look at the, the FRC mm-hmm <affirmative> and if they have a higher FRC, that means they sort of have a higher battery that they can go tap into above their FTP, and they can dip into it many times. So riders with a high FRC or even high sprint, and one minute power might do really well tapping into that and doing a more undulating pace on a climb.

Adam Pulford (17:45):

You know, that FRC number. It, it is pretty interesting because that’s indicative of, of that anaerobic battery, like Jill was talking about I would say not all the time, but like a bigger rider will Def will usually have, like, if they have a high FRC, they will normally be a little bit bigger of a rider because they have more muscle, they have more glycogen and they can, they can do that, which then normally bigger riders, aren’t the greatest till climbers all the time. However, you can hit that kind of like good middle point with a, you know, fairly high FRC. Maybe you’re a bigger rider and you can tolerate those punches. And I think it goes back to, you know, what Jill was saying before. It’s just like, know yourself, know what you can do through training before you maybe get out there to that race and, and actually hit that hill, climb work with your coach to figure that out. But it’s a, it’s an experiment. It’s a it’s a process of kind of learning yourself. And you only do that through training. You’ll develop it through training.

Jill Patterson (18:45):

And I, I do wanna bring up the point that it is super important to, to know these hill climbs and kind of know that the pace of the group, if you are trying in the race, trying to keep up with people, mm-hmm, <affirmative> once you drop you’re dropped and your train is gone. So you basically, if you’re racing, you wanna stay with your group. And if they’re surging over and over, you don’t really, you might not have the choice to study pace it, even if that’s your preferred style. So know that well ahead of time and train to the conditions that you’re likely to find in the race.

Adam Pulford (19:15):

Yep. Yep. That’s really good advice. So quick, quick little side note on pacing, cause you might not always know the course. You might not always have all the information on, on the hill climb. So Jill, what do you do if you don’t know what’s coming?

Jill Patterson (19:31):

Well, this actually relates to kind of what I just said. <Laugh> if you’re race and you’re with a group, I think just, just try to hang onto that group because your options are either you drop off and you just do your own thing and the likelihood of catching up with the group, doing your own thing, or rather low once you drop off. Yeah. And once you’re dropped your dropped, your train is gone. You, you lose that drafting benefit. The other option is trying to stay on and maybe burning a couple matches. Well, there are two possible outcomes of that. You, you either burn the match and you drop off and you’re back at, you know, you, you would’ve dropped anyways, so you’re D you’re done, or you burn the match, but you magically stay up with them and you keep the group and that’s the best option.

Jill Patterson (20:17):

That’s what you want. So if you’re in a race situation and you are with a group, I think just kind of go with that group and throw the, you know, don’t pay attention too much to the power you’re putting out. Just, you gotta do what you gotta do. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> if you’re by yourself and you’re on a climb and you really have no clue how long this climb is, I actually don’t really recommend going by power because you don’t know, is this a three minute climb? Is this 20 minutes? I, I don’t know. So I would go by perceived exertion or heart rate going by heart rate is a great one. If you can just kind of stay a little sub-threshold, if it’s a five minute climb, great, you’ll get it up. But no problems, even if it’s a 30 minute climb, you can probably do that. And then when, when you see sort of the top of the climb, that’s when you can let your heart rate go max, and kind of blow up and then recover one you’re going down.

Adam Pulford (21:06):

Yeah. Yeah. And I think like here’s a classic example is when we have a good mutual friend, his name’s Camillo. And if he creates a, you know, we say, Hey, we wanna do a long ride on the weekend. And he, you know, I’m on it. He’ll create a huge thing. And, and of course, lazy coach Adam over here who kind of skimps on his volume rides will show up and be like, how long is it? And say, oh, four hours, maybe five or something like that. It turns into six, sometimes seven. And I don’t know what’s coming, cuz I don’t, I either didn’t load the chart or I don’t really care. So I get on these hill climbs all the time and I, and it’s again, I’m lazy. And I know I could probably do this better, but like I get on hill climbs and I’m just like, you know what, I’m gonna do my pace.

Adam Pulford (21:51):

I know the way for me at some point they’re not gonna lose me. And I just hit my, you know, I, I kind of stick to my strengths. Like I don’t worry too much about it. I know that perceived effort of like seven or eight, I can sustain that for a longer period of time, which is like medium, medium hard. And I think like when you don’t know what’s coming, I think that medium, medium hard and just don’t blow yourself up. Don’t burn all the matches. If it’s a non race scenario, I think is that’s like a very good one. If you’re just in the middle of nowhere and you don’t really know what’s coming go medium. That’s my advice.

Jill Patterson (22:28):

Yes. Agreed.

Adam Pulford (22:30):

<Laugh> cause you gotta get home too. You gotta get home. Yeah. Say you don’t know what’s coming. Jill, you hit a hill climb. It’s super hard. You’re trying to keep up with your group and all the pain, all the RPE 10 outta 10. How do you manage that within yourself as you’re going on hill climb.

Jill Patterson (22:50):

Yeah. So that can be a huge struggle for people. And I’m glad you bring this up because we tend to focus so much on the power and the numbers and, and riding well and hill climbing is so much more than that. So I do a rely a lot on mental strength and I’m constantly trying to find new tricks to keep my mind in the game because if I have a weak mind, my body will also be weak. So sometimes I’m just super aware of everything. I’m looking at the power. I’m, I’m looking at my heart rate, I’m feeling what I’m feeling and I’m just totally in tune with it. But sometimes I benefit even more from just checking out and blocking all of that because if I’m in pain and it’s hurting, it’s actually can be detrimental for me to focus on that pain.

Jill Patterson (23:39):

So sometimes I’m just trying to distract myself completely and almost get the Zen state of like, I’m breathing hard. My heart is pounding, but I’m unaware of it. And that buys me, you know, maybe 30 seconds, maybe a couple minutes depending. Yeah. I’m always trying to break the climb up into smaller goals or chunks. Sometimes I’ll look at like a tree up ahead and say, just get to that tree. Okay. And when I get to that tree, I look at the next tree. I’m like get to that tree and that really helps you keep away sort of that panicky feeling of, oh my gosh, I have to do this for another 20 minutes. Well, no. Okay. Do it for five and then do it for five more. And actually I used this when I was doing the, we do segment. It was very hard and I knew by the top, the last five minutes, I was just gonna be kind of like outta my mind, like please make this end.

Jill Patterson (24:28):

So I used my water bottles to mark the course and I was waiting to see those bottles and I just thought get to that first bottle. And then once I got to that first bottle, it was almost like this security blanket of okay, I got there and then I was like, okay, get to the next bottle. Once I got to that next bottle, I knew you’re almost at the top. And that really helped me mentally break it down into smaller chunks. So I didn’t freak out at prematurely and, and ruin my effort. And then just be creative because there are different things you can do, like just scan your body, relax muscles. You’re not using. There was a time when I realized that when I was breathing hard, I was kind of like, and that was closing up my throats. I was like, okay, make, make more of an O shape with my mouth. And so I was breathing more like, and that actually opened my throat and I could get more oxygen in. So it’s amazing. The little tricks that you can find if you you’re somewhat creative in, in your experimentation outlook.

Adam Pulford (25:29):

Yeah. Yeah. Those are the, is really great advice. I mean, I, I think chunking things, you know, into smaller chunks or chunking it out. I mean, that’s, that’s really good advice, especially with huge hill climbs, 60 minute hill climbs that you’ll experience out west in the United States or, or in France, something like that. And I do think that, you know, these kind of breathing and awareness of yourself, that’s really what you’re talking about through these this mental toughness you don’t, I don’t think I, I really don’t think people are born that way. I think that they, you in sport anyway, you need to experience, you know, the, the suffering that I think he’ll climb on, on a, on a bike offers you and you have to like lean into that suck. You have to lean into that suffering a little bit and enjoy the pain to, to get there even.

Adam Pulford (26:21):

And then I think from there is born like that awareness of your body, like when you’re scanning, like how am I doing head to head to toe, head to toes basically. And when I’m doing training camps with athletes and we’re doing hill climb stuff, I’m scanning them as well because I’m observing their breathing, I’m observing their upper body, their lower body. And I’m checking on cadence, I’m checking on. How hard are they gripping the bars? You know, if they’re white knuckling their bars and they’re hyperventilating, you know, it’s like, all right, breathe, breathe, loose, wiggle your fingers, wiggle your fingers. And I just like these little cues, you know, and then I, I do catch that in myself too. Like if, if I’m drilling it up a hook, I I’ll think, okay, wiggle the fingers, breathe all these like little mantras just to get you to relax a little bit so that your legs can do the work.

Adam Pulford (27:08):

Okay. Then, and we’ll talk more about cadence in a bit, but like should just be dancing on those pedals, you know, and those, when you can focus on your breathing and you’re aware of your body doing that full body scan, it really helps you to manage the suffering throughout. And you can only do that through training. It’s. I mean, it’s, you know, we’re talking about it on a podcast. It’s a little bit more philosophical. You actually have to just go out there, try it re-listen to this podcast and go try it again. Alright. So let’s, let’s get into kind of less philosophical and kind of into some of the numbers and things like this. So number, number two that I talked about was increasing your power to weight ratio. And I want to, at first kinda like set the stage of what that weight actually is, and then focus on a thing that we kind of just talk about in the sport of cycling in terms of what that weight kind of is for the rider. So when I’m thinking about a weight or power to weight ratio, I want you to think about the whole system weight, and that’s like the mass of your person, your bike and whatever else you’re carrying up that hill climb. So Jill what’s, what’s other stuff that people are carrying up the hill climb on their bike,

Jill Patterson (28:20):

Other stuff that could be like a jacket water foods, saddle bags, spare tubes could be your tires. You know, some tires are lighter, some are heavier. It could be the literal equipment. Do you have carbon versus alloys, your stem, you know, super heavy. Even your wheel sets some wheel SETSS are really heavy. Some are not at all

Adam Pulford (28:45):

Portable Bluetooth speaker for

Jill Patterson (28:47):

Yeah. Any really anything you were carrying? When I did the Weoo segment, because it was a lot was on the line and I knew every ounce counted. I actually removed the water bottle cages from my bike and anything that was extra that I, I didn’t need, I took off and I didn’t carry anything in my pockets. I didn’t even carry tools because it was just an up and down segment. I figured, well, if I get a flat tire I’m done anyways, so I’ll just walk down. So I bought myself a couple seconds that way, but I know that’s a special situation, but I do find some riders tend to just kind of pack for the apocalypse on their bikes and they’re just carrying a lot of stuff and they fit really pair down on what they’re carrying and that’s climb faster.

Adam Pulford (29:31):

So real quick, I think we should, we should clarify the, we do segment a little bit because like taking water bottle cages off, that can sound a little Cray Cray <laugh> but there was, so what was on the line for this? Like what did you win for a,

Jill Patterson (29:44):

Yeah. So there was a lot on the line. This was not your typical ride. I have never taken my water bottle cages off before. I won’t do that again. I need my water. <Laugh> no, there was $10,000 on the line. So that was worth it for taking off my cages.

Adam Pulford (30:01):

Yes. Yes. And I think you actually, you had to carry your phone up though, right? Cause you had to take a picture at the top.

Jill Patterson (30:07):

Yeah. They, they were very strict on the rules and, and I wanted to make sure I did everything right. So one of the rules was take a picture at the top. So really my phone was the only extra thing I was carrying.

Adam Pulford (30:17):

Yeah. Did you take your phone case off as well? Just to shake?

Jill Patterson (30:20):

I should have

Adam Pulford (30:23):

<Laugh> could have gone faster. Yeah. <laugh> yeah. So, you know, I think my point here is like, you know, the point that we’re trying to make is there’s a lot of extra stuff that people can carry up on a bike or carry through a course while they’re doing an event or they’re just out there training on a regular basis. And I want people to think, yeah, it’s, it’s somewhere in between the, we do segment and, and ditching your water bottle cages to the apocalypse person that, you know, packs for everything because you carry so much and you’re gonna go really slow in hill climbs. You carry not enough and you’re gonna dehydrate. Right. So my point here is start to think more critically about the stuff that you’re always carrying, make sure it’s adequate, but not excessive. And it’s gonna dovetail into some of this other like power to wait ratio, stuff that we’re talking about.

Adam Pulford (31:15):

Because normally when we’re talking about power to wait ratios, you know, you hear a lot of like what power away for 20 minutes or power to weight that you’re pumping out on swift and all this kind of stuff. It’s usually pertaining to just like the mass of the rider, the weight of the rider to the, the, the power that they’re pumping out divided by the mass of the rider. So all of it kind of hinges back to like an FTP implication of sorts. Meaning if you increase your FTP and keep your body weight the same, you’ll increase your power to weight ratio. And therefore you’ll likely go faster uphill. Meanwhile, you know, if you don’t change your FTP, but you Chuck a water bottle, you’re gonna lighten up and could go, go a little bit faster. So that’s when we’re talking power to weight, this is what we’re talking about.

Adam Pulford (32:03):

So you don’t have to Chuck everything off your bike to get faster, to go uphill. <Laugh> kind of like what we were saying. You can, you can get faster going uphill through training. And that’s usually because we’re increasing your functional threshold power or your FTP. So Jill, if you are, if you’re working with a rider and you want them to go uphill faster and you’re gonna focus on FTP, are you even gonna talk about like that system weight at first? Or are you gonna focus on intervals? Like what would be your go-to thing to start first with an athlete?

Jill Patterson (32:41):

Yeah, so I definitely, my philosophy is I want them to be aware that yes, it matters system weight does matter, but ultimately it’s the strength of the rider. So I do not push the weight. I do not encourage my riders to lose weight, whatever weight they’re at and if they wanna be it, that weight, as long as they know, you know, the implications of that weight. Great. And we focus on making the rider stronger. And actually it’s interesting when I was riding in Japan, I was probably 10 or 15 pounds less than I am now. And you know, I was strong on Hills, but I had the endurance to do maybe 1 15, 20 minute climb. And then I was done. Like, I, I just, I was too thin. I didn’t have enough reserves to do more. Interestingly, I gained weight moving back to America. A lot of that was muscle weight. So I got heavier, but I also got stronger. So ultimately I was heavier, but going up faster on these climbs and also my repeatability was much better. So I don’t want people to get overly concerned with weight, weight does matter, but it’s not the end all be all

Adam Pulford (33:49):

Yeah. A hundred thousand percent. And I think, you know, FTP increasing your FTP is probably the best bang for buck that is also safe to do to go faster uphill because it, you know, simply put, if you increase that power that you can sustain for, you know, 30 to 60 minutes, that is the best. And then you can start kind of shaving a few things off your bike here and there, but then you, you start losing weight. That’s that’s energy, just like you talked about for these hill climbs. And that is, we carry the same philosophy. We’ve never actually like talked about it, but I’m the same way. We’re just like, if anybody has weight loss goals too, I’m just like, let’s focus on training and, and we’ll talk about weight loss later. And I also think that like, when somebody wants to say increase their power rate ratio and they tell me that I also think about it in the way of like intensive FTP training or extensive FTP training, which on the podcast we’ve talked about that metric called time to exhaustion or TTE. And Jill, I guess I’ll ask you the question is, you know, if you have somebody who’s looking to increase their power rate ratio, is there like, how do you determine if, if you just want to increase the FTP number or if you want to train them to just like, hold it longer,

Jill Patterson (35:07):

It really depends on what their goals are. You know, a quit ride really only needs to hold it up to 60 minutes. So if they’re already close to that, maybe I’m instead of focusing on extending the time at power, I’m going to focus on increasing that power or a climber who really just wants to hit certain QMS, you know, and, and they’re below 60 minutes, then I’m gonna focus more on increasing the power. But if I have a rider who is, wants to do grand fondos or a hundred mile races I would probably focus a lot on extending that power so they can stay fresh for those longer climbs and for the entire event.

Adam Pulford (35:48):

Yep. Yeah, yeah. Straight up for sure. And I, and I think too, it’s like, even if you don’t have an event on the horizon I’m going to kind of do both as we go, like we’re entering this time period where a lot of people have fitness, you know, they still have like some motivation before the holidays come. And sometimes I’ll just kind of play with extending that power duration out and then increasing a little bit, extend it out. So you’re kind of doing both at the same time. I would, I would say when you do a good job of that and stairstep everything up into the future, you can then, like what Jill was saying is you can then specify based on that the athlete’s individual goals of if you need more FTP or just longer FTP. So yeah, that’s a perfect way of doing it.

Adam Pulford (36:37):

And I think the main point on this FTP implication is like, you can increase that FTP number, keep the system weight the same and you’ll go faster. Meanwhile, you can also increase TTE and you’ll go faster over the long run. And also, I mean, you can, all this comes through proper training, you can decrease weight and not change your FTP and you’ll go faster. But I think that that is one of the more unsafe versions of it because if you’re, if you’re somebody like Jill, who’s pretty lean already. There’s not much weight to be had there. If you know that you can shave off five pounds and you’ll be more comfortable sure. Than the, you know, the weight loss is, is a pretty good option. Overall. I,

Jill Patterson (37:23):

I, I had an athlete, he was a body builder in before he was a cyclist. So he could lose weight like very, very well. I mean, he knew how to do it because for his competition’s body building, he would lose, you know, five, 10 pounds in a week if he needed to. So he wanted to lose weight for cycling. And it was interesting. I told him, okay, there will come a point where you see negative returns and we need to be careful of that point. So he lost, he lost, he lost. And all of a sudden I could see it in his training. Yeah. And he wasn’t recovering, he wasn’t hitting the numbers. You could tell his attitude had changed. Like he just, wasn’t happy to be out there training. And I told him, you have, you’ve reached that point. You’ve gone below. You need to gain some weight. So he ate a little bit more and gained a little bit more back. And then he found, okay, that is the best place to be at for him.

Adam Pulford (38:09):

It’s a precipitous fall. Like it’s, I mean, I’ve had riders like that. I’ve had myself like that too. It’s it’s interesting. It’s I don’t encourage it because again, like it’s not that safe, but it is interesting because, and the reason why it happens, I think is like people you start losing weight. Right. You go faster and people say, oh, you’re so fast. Right. And it’s, it’s kind of like it sharpens that knife right. Makes you want to lose more weight, so you go faster. But then once it hits, it just seems like it’s a week or a day. And all of a sudden you’re like, what the heck? And I’m glad that he, you know, came back from it cuz that can be sometimes tricky for people.

Jill Patterson (38:46):

Yep.

Adam Pulford (38:46):

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. So I think with that FTP and we will, I’ve got a few questions here for Jill where we’ll talk some specifics about how to actually increase FTP or TTE. But the concept of just like, you can, you can keep your body weight the same or your system weight the same and play with that FTP. And that’s really gonna be the thing to focus on to, to get faster on the, on the hill climb. So we’re kind of beating around the Bush with some of the equipment choices that you can make to wisely, I would say have a a good bang for a buck on the system weight. And we, we named some of that stuff before, but really on the bike, you know, it’s a frame, it’s the wheels, that’s at tires, you know, there’s some gearing implications, but question to you, Jill, like down to brass tax, when it comes down to equipment, where would you stick most of your money? Where would you put your money that would make the most sense for hill climb bike?

Jill Patterson (39:46):

For me? I, I think a wheel set would be the best choice. In fact, for my bike, I have two wheel sets. I have my everyday wheel set, which is a little bit more arrow little bit more deeper profile. And then I have my hill climbing wheel set and that has better gearing. It has an 1134 on it. So I can really, you know, get, get the cadence I want. And just, it’s a lightweight, responsive, great for hill climbing wheel set.

Adam Pulford (40:15):

Yep. Yep. Yeah. That’s, that’s exactly what I would say too. And I, and I think for our listeners who like, if anybody’s like stressing out about like all the things I would say always stick to your budget, but get a decent, like middle of the road frame and group set and all this kind of stuff, but yeah. Stick some money in the wheels because that’s rotational weight, it’s stiff. It’s, that’s gonna perform for you a lot better than spending an extra $2,000 on the frame. For example in an arrow frame is not really the greatest for climate, for example, like if climbing’s your, your focus also, you know, Jill talked about gearing you mentioned 34 10, is that what you have on?

Jill Patterson (40:57):

I have

Adam Pulford (40:59):

11 30, 4, 11 34. So you’re running Shao.

Jill Patterson (41:01):

Yes.

Adam Pulford (41:02):

Yeah. Okay. And so quick hack on this is like a lot of people might be running like 10 28, or I’m better with, with Ram gearing than I am Shao. So I’ll speak on that. You can talk about Shao norm norms. But in, in Ram like a 10 28, or even a 10 26, especially like on, you know, flat terrain, all this kind of stuff. I think that gearing is because gravel’s kind of pushing this, but a lot, you’re starting to see more cassettes that are like a 10 30, 10 33, or even up to a 36. The quick hack is go up a little bit, especially if you’re doing a ton of grand fondos or just hill, you know, fun hill climber routes on the weekends with your friends, like having shorter gears or let’s just say more options of gears is way better than the opposite. And Joe, why is that? Like, why is having too tall of a gear is a bad thing when you hit a hill climb?

Jill Patterson (42:00):

Yeah. Because you’re saving your legs. Like I, I like to break it down into kind of like, this is a very simplified version, but you’re tapping in two systems either you’re a muscular or your cardiovascular system. If you’re bogged down and you’re gearing, you’re really grinding your muscles and you’re using them a lot. If you’re doing grand fondos and you’re out there for a hundred miles, five or more hours, if you’re mashing your muscles early on in the race, you’re gonna burn those out prematurely. And that’s really, you’re gonna feel the consequences of that a couple hours down the line. So if you can sort of pick and choose when you tax your muscular versus your cardiovascular system, that’s awesome. If you have bigger cassette on back, you can spin a little bit more. You can transfer the, the low to your cardiovascular system a bit more, and you can share it a little bit more evenly between the two systems. And basically you can preserve your body a little bit longer and have, you know, strength up until the very end of the race.

Adam Pulford (43:00):

Exactly. Yep. And I think an extreme version of this is when a lot of people do swift, right? So they get into a swift race and say, you know, they get either like really tired or they drop their phone while they’re in the group ride or the race. And they have to like unclip go down and start pedaling again. Maybe during a, this is like more during an interval, for example, where in ERG mode. And that gear is super tall and say, you’re trying to chase like 250 Watts and you try to pedal from zero and you just you’re bogged down. You can’t turn it over. And when you hit a steep hill climb like that. And if you don’t have the gears, you’re bogged down, you can’t turn the legs over. You’re using too much of that anaerobic muscle or the fast Twitch fiber to do that.

Adam Pulford (43:45):

And it’ll burn up. And that’s why having more gears to stay aerobic for longer is a far better choice. And so if anybody who wants to improve their hill climb ability and they’re like, oh, what, what gearing? I already have a nice pair of wheels. Like, what else can I do? You know, if you’re running a 28 on the rear, go up to a 30, go up to a 33, like that’s a very cheap way of doing it. So let’s put this into action here. The question to you, Jill, is like, if I start training today, how long will it take for me to become a better hill climber?

Jill Patterson (44:21):

Yeah. So of course, as coaches would love to say it depends. And it really does depend, it depends on the length of the climb. Like if you’re targeting a five minute climb, you might see results a lot faster for that. But if you’re targeting like a two hour climb, you know, that that’s just kind of a steady state effort and that, that might take a lot longer to see improvements there, but in general gains physical gains take about three to six weeks to see. So I think you could definitely feel some progress and see some progress within about a month.

Adam Pulford (44:53):

Yeah. And, and, you know, grand scheme. And that’s, I agree with that grand scheme of things, that’s not a ton of time in the endurance world. And so, you know, when you’re kind of a beginning or you’re beginner and you’re just starting out, you’ll see some gains, you know, fairly quickly. And that’s a really good thing. So just be patient with it and realize it’s not like a tomorrow sort of, I get better just because you went and did one heel climb, obviously, but for those beginner riders, they want some go-to simple workouts to do. They’ve been training for maybe a year or two. What would you recommend for like a, a, a simple go-to workout like that and how many times should they do it per week?

Jill Patterson (45:32):

Okay. So again, it really does depend I’m going to talk a little bit about when I wanted to get better at a 20 minute hill climb because I was targeting a race and the first and most important hill in that race was 20 minutes. So I knew I had to improve my time there. So the trick is break it into smaller portions. So for me, I was targeting 20 minutes. Well, I knew that if I rode a 20 minute climb, I could hold about X amount of power. Like I was riding at that time, I had power. I wasn’t really training to power, but I was aware of the power I could put out on a climb. And I knew I sort of had this ceiling where I’d settle into it and I just couldn’t get above it. So I wanted to be able to get above that ceiling.

Jill Patterson (46:21):

So I broke it into smaller portions because you can’t just say, okay, I’m gonna climb for 20 minutes above that ceiling. That’s too hard of a goal. So just like if you’re climbing a hill and you break it into smaller portions just to get up the hill, that’s how I want you to train for the hill climbing also. So I broke it into five to 10 minute segments, and my goal was okay, bike for five minutes higher than my ceiling. And that’s how I started. I just went up Hills and I was like, okay, I know that I can normally hold two 50 Watts. That’s sort of my comfort level. I wanna try to hold two 60 for five minutes and then I would completely blow up, but that’s fine. Like that was the goal. And I, and I just repeated that over and over and over.

Jill Patterson (47:06):

And then I was like, okay, well now I’m comfortable holding two 60 for five minutes. Well, let’s try to hold two 60 for 10 minutes. So I was increasing both the Watts and the time. And I would say, you could do this maybe twice a week, a hard workout like this. Some people might be able to do it three, but that is pushing it. If you do it three, make sure all your other rides during the week are pretty easy because you really are pushing into this higher level that your body is not quite used to. And to put it in technical training terms, you’re, you’re probably biking in VO two and VO two workouts are very taxing on the body, so you don’t want to overdo them.

Adam Pulford (47:46):

Yeah. Yeah. That’s it. And if, when you’re talking on simple terms like that and, and kind of reaching for, you know, the ceiling and doing five minute you know, hard intervals that’s yeah. You gotta be careful with those cause that that’ll definitely add up. And if you’re a beginner and you’re chasing that you that twice a week, that’s, you know, and probably like even to start with three by five, you know, to your example, if you’re training for, you know, 20 minutes, three by five is very adequate. And it build yourself up just like you talked about progressive overload three by five, four by five, and just keep on kind of adding some duration to it, total time and zone sort of duration. And then you can add a little bit more duration to each interval. Yeah. So that’s a really good, really good way of doing it.

Adam Pulford (48:32):

The final question I have for you is, is for the advanced rider and as you’re working with some of your athletes, but, but I’m also like, just thinking of when, when I first started working with you, because this is like an advanced rider that wants to improve their hill climb ability. How do I, how do we do that? Right. You kind of came to me and was like, here’s my goals. How, how do we do it? And I want you to chime in here for a second, but as I’m just sitting here talking about it, it wasn’t dissimilar from what you just described about when you first started out, because you recognized that there was some sort of ceiling going on or some maximum, and you needed to break it down into smaller stuff to essentially raise that ceiling, right. And go better for 20 minutes.

Adam Pulford (49:18):

Now, you and I both use WKO five analytic, you know, a fairly robust analytical software system where we can find these edges of the physiology of the glycolytic energy system, VO, two packs and all this kind of stuff to do that. And that’s exactly where I started. I started to, you know, we did a field test. I saw what she could do for 20, 30 minutes, what she could do for five minutes. And I started to play with how could I manipulate those? And for you, Jill tricky part is you love riding your bike, right? And so you want do more and more and more always. So reigning you back is, you know, real shocker for people listening to us. I mean, that’s, that was, that’s a challenge. However, when we’re doing VO two, when we’re doing powered VO two like power intervals in, in trying to raise your ceiling to get you to, to have more FRC, more anaerobic battery, if you will, that did translate into more FTP, which was great. So for the advanced rider who has known their kind of hill climb ceiling for, for a while, what is a go-to workout that has either worked for you or you would recommend for them and how many times per week should they do that?

Jill Patterson (50:28):

I would love to recommend three workouts. Sure. I like the shorter VO two, which is about three minutes because that’s really working on max power and that’s probably gonna be closer to the 120% mm-hmm <affirmative> and when you’re doing VO two,

Adam Pulford (50:43):

Oh, the

Jill Patterson (50:43):

FTP yes of Ft. And then when you’re doing VO two, you want at least about 15 minutes, you can go up to 20, maybe even more of that. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. So if I was doing three minutes, I would probably do six or more of those repeats. And I’m gonna try to keep them up at the upper end of FTP. That’s just for kind of like brute strength. Yeah. Then I’d like to work at the lower end of FTP and that’s gonna be like the five minute intervals and I would do three or four of those at the most. And that’s probably gonna be hovering more around 105%. You can push it a little bit, just be careful. You know, you’re really playing five Watts in VO. Two can be a lot, so you’re gonna learn your profile. What you can hold for three minutes versus what you can hold for five minutes.

Jill Patterson (51:27):

And it might be, you know, 10, 15, 20 Watts difference, but that’s a huge, huge difference. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so those two workouts are fantastic. And then the third workout you had me do was just work at FTP. And that was like do three by 15 at FTP. That’s very, very hard. And that was sort of extending the time. So between all of these, you know, I had the VO two building the power for three minutes and then sort of the VO two, like mid-range power versus length, and then the FTP to kind of build on the length. So I was playing with it in all three ways, kind of bringing it all together, but I wasn’t doing these every single week. Because if I did those three every week, I would, I would burn out. So I would probably pick two of those per week and just do them for about three weeks and then take a, a rest week and then reassess and see where you are. And if you have any gains.

Adam Pulford (52:23):

Yep. Very, very simple. But I, I liked your analogy of like wherever that ceiling is and, and let’s try to increase that. Right. And then how long can I hold this? Okay. Now we go back. Now we see how long we can hold that. And it’s really getting back to that intensive versus extensive FTP training that we’ve talked about on the podcast before that you and I have done in training before. And that’s a really good way of looking at it. And I think, you know, also to knowing yourself, knowing the phenotype of your rider with Jill, you know, she’s good at longer and steady. So I know I knew that I didn’t have to worry about that too much. I needed more power. I needed more anaerobic power to raise the ceiling. And so, as you are shaping up for the listeners listening, as you’re starting to shape up, how do I do this?

Adam Pulford (53:09):

Sometimes increasing your FTP is not gonna increase your FTP. It’s something else, right? You come at it in a different way. Oftentimes for an advanced rider, increasing your VO two or power of VO, two max is a very effective way to do that in conjunction with keep its volume up. So, yeah, that’s and I just, I want to cue it all up and, and give some of those real world examples, as well as, you know, some examples come at a different angle from a different coach for this hill climb ability. I think with Jill two, I mean, the way she thinks about hill climbs is very different than myself. I will roll into a hill climb and get through it. Jill will analyze the crap out of it and win $10,000 for it. So <laugh>, she’s, she’s far better hill climber than I am <laugh>.

Adam Pulford (53:58):

But you know, climbing’s that elusive skill that requires a lot, you know, requires a lot of fitness, a lot of suffering like we talked about, and it requires a lot of practice to get better at it. Anyone can improve it. And it’s a very good skill to have to have it refined when you go into really any event that has a hill in it, and that’s super long and has a ton of Hills in it. So today we talked about, you know, the quickest way to go faster uphills, to maybe scoop some weight off of the total system of your bike. You know, if you’re doing short hill climbs like Jill did, you know, throw some bottles off or make some, some intelligent decisions when it comes to buying wheels or the frame or something like that, that only gets you so far though, you need to train.

Adam Pulford (54:43):

And that will be the biggest bang for the buck when it comes to increasing FTP or the power to weight ratio to help you go uphill faster. So also don’t forget, just getting to know yourself, breathing awareness, checking in with yourself on that hill climb kind of in that moment and refining that process yourself, talk to get through that and develop that mental toughness. Those are all super huge, powerful aspects to refine, to become a really good hill climber. So kind of jammed all that in there, Jill, but any final words of encouragement to our listeners before they go out and start climbing more Hills?

Jill Patterson (55:22):

Yeah, I think the best way to get better at climbing is to just to go out and climb. I think a lot of people are very intimidated by it and it’s easy to make excuses and avoid doing it and just kind of hope you get better at it, but really the best way to get better is to just go out and climb. And I think also making that commitment once you make that commitment, you will see results if you are patient and you work at it. So just remember, it will take some time, but you will see results. And then my last piece of advice is keep it fun and experiment with it. So don’t get just entirely bogged down in the numbers. It’s not just about the power numbers. There are a lot of things you can improve to make your climbing better, that are not just getting stronger.

Jill Patterson (56:09):

So for example, you can actually train yourself to climb easy up a hill. A lot of people don’t know how to climb and go easy. So if they can go easy, then they can snag some recovery while they’re climbing. And then that can extend their power on the climb in the long run experiment with higher cadence versus lower cadence, sliding your butt back in the saddle, sliding it forward. How does that affect your pedaling? Standing, climbing, seated, climbing pushing your legs versus pulling your legs. There’s so much you can play around with, and that can extend your endurance on the climb. You know, if you’re getting tired, doing one thing, you can switch to another thing and then of course, practice with your mind and how to find that piece and that calm and that way to keep going.

Adam Pulford (56:58):

Those are some great final words. And Jill, thanks for the advice. Thank you for the time today for joining us here on the podcast. But before we go if our listeners wanna follow your journey on all the fondos and hill climb adventures, where can they find you?

Jill Patterson (57:14):

You can check on my website, Jill Patterson cycling just Google that. Or you can find me on Instagram again, Jill Patterson cycling. You could find me on Facebook under Jill Patterson and then Strava is a big one. You can follow by adventures. Jill Patterson.

Adam Pulford (57:29):

There you go. And I think they can probably find you on swift too. Come the fall winter, right?

Jill Patterson (57:34):

Maybe I, I had swift. I no longer have swift. I might have swift again at some point <laugh>

Adam Pulford (57:39):

Okay, well, no pressure, no pressure, but if you wanna ride virtually with you’ll follow her on all the things that she said, and you’ll probably find a virtual ride with her too. So Jill, we’re coming into your off season. So en enjoy some time away from all the intervals that I give you. But let’s still ride together and thanks again for taking time to share your hill climb knowledge with us on the train rent podcast.

Jill Patterson (58:02):

Yeah. Thanks so much, Adam.

 


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